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Old 02-25-2018, 05:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kevxu View Post
It is not so easy to separate Irish from Scots. A group of Irish from NE of Ulster, the Dal Riada, extended their kingdom in Ireland across to western Scotland, and this is presumed to have introduced Gaelic culture into the land of the Picts. In later times the Irish provincial kings and clan heads began importing mercenaries from Scotland, usually called by the general term galloglasses.

Thus, sorting out who is Irish and who is "Scots"-Irish is not a simple matter of sorting by religion, or whether a family was imported from Scotland as part of the Plantation of Ulster. Some of these imported colonists probably have as much Irish DNA as the people they displaced.

My mother's paternal family had the rather bland name of Woods, but they were married to the McGee/McGhees. My grt grt grandparents in this line arrived in Canada about 1852 and settled in Hastings Co., Ont. They came from Tievenny townland near Strabane, and according to their family tradition they came as they were tired of the "exactions" of their landlord. The husband died in sight of land or maybe even on land, leaving his wife, a Mary McGee to carry on with resettling the family. Her family claimed to be of Irish origin originally, to have moved to Scotland, and despite being quietly Catholic managed through finagling with one Hamilton high and mighty or the other to get included in one of the Plantation of Ulster scheme. The second generation in Irish - supposedly - converted to Presbyterianism.

The Scots-Irish reproduced their life in Ireland (minus the landlords) in Ontario - Prebyterian churches of their own, a thriving anti-Catholic Orange Order, stick-to-your-own-kind marriage for several generations. Eventually, I have read, they achieved very strong political influence in the province and became a virtual political machine. Every male in my grt grandfather's generation in the family belonged to the Orange Order in Ontario and held an office of one sort or another, and this carried down to my grandfather's generation, though he came to the U.S. in his youth and when he returned to Canada he went out to Saskatchewan instead of back to Ontario.

Certainly the Ontario that I saw in the 1950's was straitjacketed with Blue Laws of all sorts, which was said to be a heritage of their influence in the government.

A DNA study comparing Scots, Scots- Irish and Catholic Irish from Ulster would be interesting....perhaps it has already been done.

A personal footnote: My mother's father was, of course, brought up in the Orange anti-Catholic tradition, and even though he eventually raised his family in western NY state, that influence was not discarded. When my mother met my Irish Catholic descended father, he needed his mother's permission to marry because of his age - my mother did not. So, armed with his permission they sneaked off and were married in secret by a Presbyterian minister...as a token appeasement to offer her father when the day would come that he would have to be told. However, this would have leveled my father's entire family with cardiac arrest, so they shut their mouths and had the Roman Catholic wedding about ten days latter for which my father's mother had thought she was giving her permission. So, the religious and ethnic tangle that is Irish history was literally and truly given to me in the sperm and the egg.
You're correct Kevin a dna study just came out a couple of months ago. It is very interesting as well.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4

There is this one as well.

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetic...l.pgen.1007152
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Old 02-25-2018, 08:28 AM
 
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Certainly they were in other areas before coming to Ulster. Davy Crockett's family came from Ulster but were of French Huguenot stock. It is said 250,000 emigrated from Ulster in the 1700s and over 100,000 in the 1800s


The ancestors of the Protestant population of Ulster arrived there in a series of immigrations during the seventeenth century, coming from the Scottish Lowlands and Borders and to a lesser extent from various parts of England, as far apart as Lancashire, Norfolk and Devon. Within a hundred years they had transformed the north of Ireland from a land composed largely of woods and swamps, intersped with small areas of modest cultivation, into a province with roads, market towns and ports, supported by an increasingly stable system of farming , a thriving cattle trade and a domestic textile industry. Into a country where Catholic medieval values and an indolent pastoral economy pervaded, they brought Calvinistic Protestantism and a stern work ethic.

Although they came into what was an English colony and many of them were originally part of the official settlement of Ulster by the English Crown, the Scots so predominated in numbers, in the toughness of their culture and in the determination with which they acquired land, that the whole Plantation enterprise took on Scottish characteristics and the name ' Ulster Scots ' came in time to be applied to the entire non-Irish population of the Province which include large numbers of English, much smaller numbers of Welsh and some refugee French Protestants. In America the term ' Scotch Irish ', which had originally been used by Ulster students training for the Presbyterian ministry at Scottish universities, was applied to the Protestant immigrants from Ulster to distinguish them from the Catholic Irish who arrived later.

From the early years of the eighteenth century, thousands of Ulster Scots emigrated to the Colonies of British North America, first to New England and then in much larger numbers to Pennsylvania. From thence they went southwards though the Great Valley, east of the Applachian Mountains, into the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia and on to the Piedmont of North and South Carolina. Within three generations the line of the Appalachian range, from New England to Georgia was dotted with settlements of Ulster origin.

This was the beginning of the American Old West and the Scots-Irish people provided most of its pioneers, the archetypal frontiersman, Davy Crockett, was the son of an immigrant from Co Londonderry. They also left in the Appalachian region a rich heritage of material culture - the masonry skills of the Ulster Scot can be traced from the bawns or defensive walls of Plantation Ulster to the stone houses of Kentucky - a story-telling tradition and a legacy of music and dance which was the basis of Appalachian mountain culture.
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Old 02-27-2018, 06:10 AM
 
Location: East of the Mississippi and South of Bluegrass
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Interesting

The Plantation of Ulster: British Settlement in an Irish Landscape, 1600-1670 by Philip S. Robinson

The Plantation of Ulster: British Settlement in an Irish Landscape, 1600-1670 shows how colonisation on the ground was not as much influenced either by the London Government or by the new landowners as has often been assumed. Environmental factors proved more important than governmental controls in shaping the emerging settlement pattern. The author also demonstrates how seeds of bitterness were quickly sown between the Protestant settlers and the Catholic natives whom they had displaced, with consequences that last to this day.

The Plantation of Ulster: British Settlement in an Irish Landscape

I have not been able to locate a copy of these book through either the public library nor the University library near me but I wonder if anyone here as read it themselves.
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Old 02-27-2018, 03:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeIsWhere... View Post
Interesting

The Plantation of Ulster: British Settlement in an Irish Landscape, 1600-1670 by Philip S. Robinson

The Plantation of Ulster: British Settlement in an Irish Landscape, 1600-1670 shows how colonisation on the ground was not as much influenced either by the London Government or by the new landowners as has often been assumed. Environmental factors proved more important than governmental controls in shaping the emerging settlement pattern. The author also demonstrates how seeds of bitterness were quickly sown between the Protestant settlers and the Catholic natives whom they had displaced, with consequences that last to this day.

The Plantation of Ulster: British Settlement in an Irish Landscape

I have not been able to locate a copy of these book through either the public library nor the University library near me but I wonder if anyone here as read it themselves.
I don't think this would be the same Philip Robinson? He has written a few books but mostly fictional Ulster-Scots stories. Would like the pic to be smaller but that's how it came up from tiny pic and its anything but tiny



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Old 02-27-2018, 04:20 PM
 
Location: East of the Mississippi and South of Bluegrass
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Originally Posted by Ulsterman View Post
I don't think this would be the same Philip Robinson? He has written a few books but mostly fictional Ulster-Scots stories. Would like the pic to be smaller but that's how it came up from tiny pic and its anything but tiny
LOL, that's perfect as I can see it without my glasses...from a mile away!

Yep, same author, without the middle initial.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_pg_2...qid=1519773887
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Old 02-28-2018, 10:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeIsWhere... View Post
LOL, that's perfect as I can see it without my glasses...from a mile away!

Yep, same author, without the middle initial.

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_pg_2...qid=1519773887
So true. Its like banner headlines Here is the clip of Andrew as a boy which I mentioned earlier. He's talking with an Ulster accent but maybe his family still had that accent.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab0s...ature=youtu.be
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Old 02-28-2018, 08:29 PM
 
Location: East of the Mississippi and South of Bluegrass
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Thank you Ulsterman, finally now I've seen it and understand your comment from an earlier post about the scar on Jackson's right cheek. I've read a few differing accounts of the scar but this site also confirms the story of the scar.

The Brotherhood of Soldiers At War - Andy's Scar

Young Andy drew himself up to his full adolescent height, looked the officer in the eyes and replied, "Sir, I am a prisoner of war, and claim to be treated as such." The refusal of the small boy so angered the commander he drew his sword and swung it at the upstart lad. Quickly Andy raised his arm to protect himself. The sword bit into flesh, cutting his forearm to the bone and then continuing to slash a long furrow across his forehead.

Andy's Scar - A Badge of Freedom
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Old 03-01-2018, 08:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeIsWhere... View Post
Thank you Ulsterman, finally now I've seen it and understand your comment from an earlier post about the scar on Jackson's right cheek. I've read a few differing accounts of the scar but this site also confirms the story of the scar.

The Brotherhood of Soldiers At War - Andy's Scar

Young Andy drew himself up to his full adolescent height, looked the officer in the eyes and replied, "Sir, I am a prisoner of war, and claim to be treated as such." The refusal of the small boy so angered the commander he drew his sword and swung it at the upstart lad. Quickly Andy raised his arm to protect himself. The sword bit into flesh, cutting his forearm to the bone and then continuing to slash a long furrow across his forehead.

Andy's Scar - A Badge of Freedom
HomeIsWhere thanks for that info. A wee bit different form the video but similar in other ways.
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Old 03-01-2018, 01:35 PM
 
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BBC Ulster-Scots

BBC - Ulster-Scots
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Old 03-02-2018, 11:50 AM
 
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Its been talked about before but nothing ever happened. At 13 miles the crossing mentioned from Torr Head to the Mull of Kintyre is the shortest.

Politicians ready to discuss bridge between NI and Scotland
By Stephen Walker

BBC News NI Political Correspondent
2 March 2018

The Scottish government says it is ready to initiate discussions with Belfast and in Dublin about the feasibility of building a bridge between Scotland and Northern Ireland.

A spokesman for the Scottish Government told BBC NI's The View programme that it will "initiate discussions to explore improving connectivity between our two islands".

The spokesman added: "Given the scale of any such fixed link, it is important that all options are fully considered".

The idea of a fixed link has been backed by Scotland's Brexit Minister Mike Russell.

In Dublin, the MSP said recently: "I think it's a great idea. It would open up my constituency - that's the route I would like to see.

"But there's a lot of talking to be done about that. I think it would be important that talking starts on that. Recent coverage indicates that that's something that should happen. As the local MSP, I would definitely support it."

The idea of connecting Scotland and the island of Ireland has been around for over a hundred and thirty years.

Plans from the 1890s show tunnels stretching from counties Down and Antrim to the west of Scotland to carry trains.

Ultimately, despite much consideration, the tunnels were never built.

Professor Alan Dunlop from Liverpool University has examined the options and believes a bridge could be built.

"The best route seems to be from the Mull of Kintyre to the Antrim coast," he said.

"The difficulty with that in the past has been getting from the Mull of Kintyre to the Glasgow central belt and to the central belt of Scotland.

"There are now achievable ways of actually doing that. So I think that the best route, potentially, as far as the simplest connection and the least expensive connection, would be from the Antrim coast to the Mull of Kintyre."

A bridge stretching from Larne in County Antrim to Portpatrick in Dumfries and Galloway is another possibility and it has also been suggested that a link could be created from Bangor, County Down, to Portpatrick.

Politicians ready to discuss bridge between NI and Scotland - BBC News
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