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Say German leadership gets lucky and manages to find out where and when D-day would happen do you think they could have successfully repulsed it or do you think it would still succeed albeit with a lot more resistance and dead/injured men?
Yes. Amphibious landings are always dicey, Normandy especially so. As it was it was a near thing to an extent.
One of the reasons why the Germans didn't react more expeditiously was that Hitler's aides refused to wake him up to tell him and get orders. Why the orders came from him is because he had taken operational control of the Wehrmacht previously. So he slept until his normal noonish time and then refused to believe that Normandy was anything more than a feint, continuing to believe the main invasion would be at the Pas de Calais.
He held back the Panzer Corps from attacking the beachhead for so long that Allied forces became firmly entrenched and started moving inland, allowing the artificial harbors to be installed and supplies and forces to pour ashore.
Eisenhower had prepared a "Failure Message" in anticipation of it not being successful.
Last edited by North Beach Person; 08-14-2018 at 02:48 PM..
Reason: corrected to what's bolded from incorrect.
He held back the Luftwaffe from attacking the beachhead for so long that Allied forces became firmly entrenched and started moving inland, allowing the artificial harbors to be installed and supplies and forces to pour ashore.
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Did you mean held back the Panzer Corps? There wasn't a whole lot of the Lutfwaffe left to hold back at this point. The Allies enjoyed complete domination of the air.
Did you mean held back the Panzer Corps? There wasn't a whole lot of the Lutfwaffe left to hold back at this point. The Allies enjoyed complete domination of the air.
Yes, brain fart. I was even thinking Rommel's guys. Knew it and was to lazy to edit, which I'll do now.
Say German leadership gets lucky and manages to find out where and when D-day would happen do you think they could have successfully repulsed it or do you think it would still succeed albeit with a lot more resistance and dead/injured men?
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person
Yes. Amphibious landings are always dicey, Normandy especially so. As it was it was a near thing to an extent.
One of the reasons why the Germans didn't react more expeditiously was that Hitler's aides refused to wake him up to tell him and get orders. Why the orders came from him is because he had taken operational control of the Wehrmacht previously. So he slept until his normal noonish time and then refused to believe that Normandy was anything more than a feint, continuing to believe the main invasion would be at the Pas de Calais.
He held back the Panzer Corps from attacking the beachhead for so long that Allied forces became firmly entrenched and started moving inland, allowing the artificial harbors to be installed and supplies and forces to pour ashore.
Eisenhower had prepared a "Failure Message" in anticipation of it not being successful.
My personal opinion is that if the Germans had been prepared that they could have caused an immense number of casualties. As it was, casualties were moderate. Most of those killed were on Omaha Beach. Those who landed at Utah, Sword, Juneau, and Gold Beaches had an easier time.
However, I don't think even if the Germans had been ready it would have altered the course of the war. By the time that D-Day occurred, aerial bombardment of Germany and the Normandy coast had taken their toll on German forces. The panzer divisions were not up to full strength. The need to fight the Germans on the Eastern front kept Germany from being able to deploy a larger and better equipped force against the western allies.
The die was cast for Hitler when he chose to invade the USSR and declare on the United States in 1941. German was simply stretched too thin and too few resources compared to the countries that opposed him.
My personal opinion is that if the Germans had been prepared that they could have caused an immense number of casualties. As it was, casualties were moderate. Most of those killed were on Omaha Beach. Those who landed at Utah, Sword, Juneau, and Gold Beaches had an easier time.
However, I don't think even if the Germans had been ready it would have altered the course of the war. By the time that D-Day occurred, aerial bombardment of Germany and the Normandy coast had taken their toll on German forces. The panzer divisions were not up to full strength. The need to fight the Germans on the Eastern front kept Germany from being able to deploy a larger and better equipped force against the western allies.
The die was cast for Hitler when he chose to invade the USSR and declare on the United States in 1941. German was simply stretched too thin and too few resources compared to the countries that opposed him.
Maybe. But if, since we're playing what if, the Germans had been able to throw back the invasion the whole strategy of the Western Allies would have had to change. The failure could have pushed Stalin to seek a negotiated ceasefire/peace, something that Roosevelt and especially Churchill were very concerned about. In fact, the deal was that once the beachhead in France was established then the USSR was to launch an attack on the Eastern Front within a short period of time (Churchill was thinking days) which didn't happen until June 22.
There was serious concern almost until the Fall of Berlin that Stalin would seek a negotiated peace with Hitler. Whether that was really a legitimate fear is another question. With Stalin nobody ever really knew.
I doubt the Germans could have defeated D day even if they knew Normandy was the target. The casualties would have been enormous perhaps many times more than the battle deaths say of a Tarawa style frontal invasion in the Pacific. The Russians had huge casualties in Berlin which did not deter them.
We had a secure route of resupply of both men and material across the Channel. Over both the Channel and Western Europe we had near total air supremacy. The Germans may have exacted a heavy toll for days and even weeks but in the end they could not bring up reinforcements for fear of air attack.
And of course the Russians in the East were pushing relentlessly towards the Fatherland draining off German resources. And the Germans never had a strategic air force with heavy bombers that might have done real damage to the Normandy beach head and beyond if they could evade our fighter aircraft.
I don't think they could have with what they had on hand at the time. Even with the full force of what was available they would have had to face the allied airforce and the naval guns of the fleet off the coast. Airpower would have seriously curtailed their movement, naval guns would have torn into the German troops approaching the beaches. Stopping the assault troops at the beach was the only real option they had, stopping and wiping them out.
In the weeks B4 D Day The p51 Mustang with its huge range thanks to disposable fuel pods, destroyed the lufte waffa and escorted bombers to Germany's manufacturing plants and munitions plants. Germans had no air support to repel D Day.
Say German leadership gets lucky and manages to find out where and when D-day would happen do you think they could have successfully repulsed it or do you think it would still succeed albeit with a lot more resistance and dead/injured men?
Absolutely they would have won and Europe would have been German.
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