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Old 09-26-2018, 06:22 PM
 
Location: San Diego CA
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The people are mostly gone but some of the old Nazi buildings in Berlin still stand like the Luftwaffe building.
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Old 09-26-2018, 06:26 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
Vengeance. Germans had firebombed cities all over Europe. Germans can whine all they want about Dresden. "How could they do that to poor old us?"

If you can't take the heat don't burn the kitchen.
We did what had to be done to put the Third Reich out of business, but again, by Feb 1945 the war was over, there was no need to firebomb Dresden and kill all of those people.
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Old 09-26-2018, 08:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerGeek40 View Post
Agree, and even worse was the Dresden fire bombing - by Feb 1945 the war was over - there was no justification for it.
Dresden, which I was in in 2016 on a European trip, is an amazing city as it has a rich historic cultural center. While doing some of the walking tours, the guide mentioned that one of the architects of many of the buildings of Dresden who, when visiting it post World War Two, looked the carnage of destruction and stated, "it will take 70 years to rebuild this".

Incidentally, on that trip there were about three historic city center blocks left to complete. The Germans have rebuilt to same architecturally compatible style and exact specifications when a historic building. It is truly a beautiful city (and region for that matter- Bad Schandau / Kurort Rathan etc).



I happened to be there during a large weekend regional festival and looking down from the top of the Frauenkirche tower, had a brief moment where I closed my eyes and imagined the firestorm and its destruction then looked back down at the current vendor displays and thousands of people enjoying a perfect late August day. It is very moving when you've seen the before and after photos.


https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/20...ombing/385445/
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Old 09-26-2018, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Cupertino, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
We can both be right. I have no sympathy for the German population suffering in WW2, in fact they are very lucky we didn't develop the A bomb earlier and turn there country into a glass sheet. I would not have shed a tear.

On the other hand, there is a difference to the fire bombing of Dresden to a population that was still at war, to the pillage and rape done by the Soviet union to a population that had surrendered, or for that matter the mass execution by Nazis done to the surrendered population in the rest of Europe. Same distinction can be made vs the A bomb in Japan vs. Japanese atrocities done to an occupied and surrendered population in China. Once the country surrendered, hostilities should end. What Russia did was brutal and unjustified, what Germany did was brutal and unjustified.

Also I am amused that every so often we hear from a person in this forum from Germany, and they ALWAYS claim that "no my grandfather/family never supported the nazis, they were never part of that". Yeah, after the war every German was suddenly an anti-nazi and, like Sgt. Shultz, "I know nothing". Even those that lived a few miles from the extermination camps and had ashes from the furnaces falling on there house like snow flakes. I don't buy it.

Poor OT, he just wanted to show some cool pictures of a pre-war Berlin, and they are cool. Didn't know what he was bringing up.
Good point as far as continued brutality against a surrendered population. No matter how brutal a defeated warring nation was, it does not justify heinous crimes against their population by the victors. The Soviets did not have much of a moral high ground in the end. And I'm not surprised where this discussion has gone. This sort of subject tends to be a Pandora's box. Let the debates continue.
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Old 09-26-2018, 10:27 PM
 
Location: interior Alaska
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Also I am amused that every so often we hear from a person in this forum from Germany, and they ALWAYS claim that "no my grandfather/family never supported the nazis, they were never part of that". Yeah, after the war every German was suddenly an anti-nazi and, like Sgt. Shultz, "I know nothing". Even those that lived a few miles from the extermination camps and had ashes from the furnaces falling on there house like snow flakes. I don't buy it.
Yuuuup.

My grandmother emigrated to the US before war broke out. She was quite adamant that other Germans knew.
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Old 09-27-2018, 08:20 AM
Status: "True liberal" (set 8 days ago)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Americans were fairly magnanimous to the Japanese people upon surrender, and this was with the knowledge that Japanese were executing and torturing our prisoners of war. I mean, during the heat of battle it was no quarter on either side, that was understood and it was directed to the Japanese soldier, not the civilians. Once hostilities ended and Japanese was under military occupation, America turned to, not rape and pillaging, but aiding Japan and helping them rebuild.
It's one thing if your comrade is tortured. It's quite another if your wife and daughter were raped.

Like you said, there was no quarter. On our side this was made a lot easier because the Japanese rarely surrendered. They fought to the last man. There were few to whom mercy had to be extended.

After wars things are different. Everyone is only too glad to stop fighting when ordered to. It's my understanding that even the Germans were pretty good to the French once they surrendered. Except for the Jews and the resistance.

But while the fighting is hot and heavy, if your foe has committed murder and rape, destroyed everything of value in your country, you will not stop until you have made him pay in kind.

If Germany had surrendered before the Russians crossed the Oder I bet Berlin would have been spared the worst. But they didn't. They sniped, they booby trapped, civilians got in on it too. Even children. To the Russian soldier the whole population was fighting him.

I can't criticize people for going beyond the bounds in these circumstances. In the comfort and peace of our offices it's easy to point the finger. We should try to place ourselves in their positions and honestly consider how we would have acted.
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Old 09-27-2018, 11:53 AM
 
Location: San Diego CA
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Still following the thread. My next door neighbor, a woman in her 80’s, was actually a child in Berlin when the Russians entered the city. I recall her saying that despite her young age she has vivid memories of hearing women screaming in the night.

She also had an older brother who was a teenager at the the time and technically not old enough to be in the military. He was impressed into the Berlin defence forces and actually fought the Russians and survived. Because of his young age he was released to his family by the Russians.

Almost all the older German troops who fought in the Battle of Berlin were detained and sent into the labor camps in the interior of the Soviet Union. They stayed a very long time and the mortality rates were very high. The last German POW’s in the USSR were not released until 1955.
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Old 09-28-2018, 07:22 AM
Status: "True liberal" (set 8 days ago)
 
3,848 posts, read 1,721,478 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgsing View Post
Still following the thread. My next door neighbor, a woman in her 80s, was actually a child in Berlin when the Russians entered the city. I recall her saying that despite her young age she has vivid memories of hearing women screaming in the night.

She also had an older brother who was a teenager at the the time and technically not old enough to be in the military. He was impressed into the Berlin defence forces and actually fought the Russians and survived. Because of his young age he was released to his family by the Russians.

Almost all the older German troops who fought in the Battle of Berlin were detained and sent into the labor camps in the interior of the Soviet Union. They stayed a very long time and the mortality rates were very high. The last German POWs in the USSR were not released until 1955.
This is a video of the last German POWs, arriving in the BRD in 1955. These were captured at Stalingrad.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOCJwvrDnUA&t=23s

There are no English subtitles. The speaker says that the return of the POWs was Chancellor Adenauer's greatest accomplishment so far.

The hymn is "Nun danket alle Gott", an ancient German hymn, known here as "Now thank we all our God".
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Old 09-28-2018, 02:17 PM
 
Location: East of the Sun, West of the Moon
15,066 posts, read 16,720,566 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
Oh boohoo!

Not.

They had it coming. The Russian soldiers knew full well what the Germans had done to their wives and daughters.

Payback is a *****. Someone had to put the Germans in their place and the Russians did.

If the Germans had been raping American women it would have been bayonets instead of candy bars the GIs gave them.
You are one of my favorite child-rape apologists on this forum. /s
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Old 09-29-2018, 07:56 AM
Status: "True liberal" (set 8 days ago)
 
3,848 posts, read 1,721,478 times
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Originally Posted by ABQConvict View Post
You are one of my favorite child-rape apologists on this forum. /s
I don't feel qualified to pass judgement on people who have subjected to the horrors the Germans inflicted on the Russians. Whole towns of people were burned alive. People wed led to mass burial pits, shot in the back and buried alive. Women and children were strung up from street lamps.

I can't sit here and say I wouldn't have done the same as the Russians did when I got my chance. So I can't condemn them.

I'm sorry if I'm not one of the holier-than-thou-crowd you esteem, but there it is.
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