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Old 11-03-2018, 09:53 AM
 
2,001 posts, read 1,359,274 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgsing View Post
Ah yes. Berlin in the 30’s. Privilged Christian elites enjoying the good life. Behind the facade the others are being fitted with the yellow badges and readied for the cattle cars and “relocation camps”.

Ah yes.... the same harsh rhetoric of class and identity politics.... brought to you by... the same people who created the Third Reich. Except this is the left wing version.
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Old 11-15-2018, 07:23 AM
 
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
427 posts, read 93,093 times
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Default The Nazi Party were Leftist Fanatics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zeppelin View Post
Ah yes.... the same harsh rhetoric of class and identity politics.... brought to you by... the same people who created the Third Reich. Except this is the left wing version.
You are implying that the Nazi's were Right Wing.

I would like to offer an argument that the Nazi were in fact Left-Wing fanatics, and not Right.

Let's begin with the name of the party: Nazis - National Socialist Party. The name really says it all.

Nationalists can be Left or Right: Hitler was Left. Donald Trump is Right, just as Ronald Reagan was. And National Socialism = Fascism.

Economically, the Nazi's Socialist (Leftist) programs called for the nationalization of education, media, health care, transportation, and other major industries. For Hitler, as he stated to the German industrialists, economics was of secondary importance, entirely subordinated to politics. So the State, not the Market, would determine the direction of economic development. And Germany’s economy had to be subordinated to the preparation and then the carrying out of his long-term military plans. Definitely not Conservative or Right-Wing policies.

Socially, the Nazis preached class warfare, agitating the working class to resist exploitation by Capitalists, particularly Jewish capitalists. They denounced Christians as Right-wing fanatics, instituted and vigorously enforced strict gun controls, encouraged illegitimacy, promiscuity, and abortion. All Progressive (Left) ideas. But they provided free healthcare, education and even paid vacations to placate their citizens. Sound familiar?

Hitler only fought Russia to rid Communism, a competitor of National Socialism(Fascism).

So, the Nazi Party were indeed Socialist, Fascist and Left. It had a lot in common with the current rise of the modern Left in the United States. Yet today's Left wants to perpetuate the narrative that the Nazis were Right-wing extremists. This insidious lie has been taught at Left-controlled schools and universities and further enforced by the Leftist MSM, and therefore has been embraced by mostly young people who don't know history. The result biases the entire political landscape and threatens the rise of Nazi-like political control.

And that should scare everybody!

Last edited by Rumann Koch; 11-15-2018 at 07:32 AM..
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Old 11-15-2018, 07:54 AM
Status: "True liberal" (set 20 days ago)
 
3,874 posts, read 1,737,363 times
Reputation: 5290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumann Koch View Post
You are implying that the Nazi's were Right Wing.

I would like to offer an argument that the Nazi were in fact Left-Wing fanatics, and not Right.

Let's begin with the name of the party: Nazis - National Socialist Party. The name really says it all.

Nationalists can be Left or Right: Hitler was Left. Donald Trump is Right, just as Ronald Reagan was. And National Socialism = Fascism.

Economically, the Nazi's Socialist (Leftist) programs called for the nationalization of education, media, health care, transportation, and other major industries. For Hitler, as he stated to the German industrialists, economics was of secondary importance, entirely subordinated to politics. So the State, not the Market, would determine the direction of economic development. And Germany’s economy had to be subordinated to the preparation and then the carrying out of his long-term military plans. Definitely not Conservative or Right-Wing policies.

Socially, the Nazis preached class warfare, agitating the working class to resist exploitation by Capitalists, particularly Jewish capitalists. They denounced Christians as Right-wing fanatics, instituted and vigorously enforced strict gun controls, encouraged illegitimacy, promiscuity, and abortion. All Progressive (Left) ideas. But they provided free healthcare, education and even paid vacations to placate their citizens. Sound familiar?

Hitler only fought Russia to rid Communism, a competitor of National Socialism(Fascism).

So, the Nazi Party were indeed Socialist, Fascist and Left. It had a lot in common with the current rise of the modern Left in the United States. Yet today's Left wants to perpetuate the narrative that the Nazis were Right-wing extremists. This insidious lie has been taught at Left-controlled schools and universities and further enforced by the Leftist MSM, and therefore has been embraced by mostly young people who don't know history. The result biases the entire political landscape and threatens the rise of Nazi-like political control.

And that should scare everybody!
The Road to Serfdom by Friedrich Hayek states the same thing, that Fascism and Communism are two sides of the same coin. He's Austrian and moved to the US in the 20's, seeing first hand how these movements developed.

Mussolini was a Communist or Socialist before he was Fascist.

Allan Bloom says they appeal to the same human drive: commitment. Liberal regimes are founded on reason. But Communist and Fascist regimes derive from and demand a different kind of basis and that basis is commitment, which justifies anything the regimes do and forbid questioning it.
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Old 11-15-2018, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
427 posts, read 93,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
The Road to Serfdom by Friedrich Hayek states the same thing, that Fascism and Communism are two sides of the same coin. He's Austrian and moved to the US in the 20's, seeing first hand how these movements developed.

Mussolini was a Communist or Socialist before he was Fascist.

Allan Bloom says they appeal to the same human drive: commitment. Liberal regimes are founded on reason. But Communist and Fascist regimes derive from and demand a different kind of basis and that basis is commitment, which justifies anything the regimes do and forbid questioning it.
I like the word 'drive' in your post. I think the main difference between Fascism and Communism is that Fascism has the element of Nationalism - the drive for the betterment of one's Nation. Communism is, supposedly, the drive for the betterment of the Individual.

Marx, in his Communist Manifesto, was wrong in his prediction of workers revolting against the bourgeoisie(Capitalists). Mussolini saw that in WWI workers fought against their fellow proletariat(worker) in the name of country. So Mussolini developed the idea that a new type of Socialism was needed to account for the flaws of Marx' theory - one that would make Nationalism the center of its doctrine. The State would be the ideal substitute to ensure worker protection and welfare, and so Fascism was born (National Socialism).

Funny - all around the World, Socialists are seen as Patriotic. The only place Socialists are not seen as Patriotic is in the United States. And why? Because all Socialists hate what the US stands for. Name a Leftist ideal today and you will find Nazis and other Fascists were advocating those same exact ideas. And that led to two World Wars!
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Old 11-15-2018, 11:47 AM
Status: "True liberal" (set 20 days ago)
 
3,874 posts, read 1,737,363 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumann Koch View Post
I like the word 'drive' in your post. I think the main difference between Fascism and Communism is that Fascism has the element of Nationalism - the drive for the betterment of one's Nation. Communism is, supposedly, the drive for the betterment of the Individual.

Marx, in his Communist Manifesto, was wrong in his prediction of workers revolting against the bourgeoisie(Capitalists). Mussolini saw that in WWI workers fought against their fellow proletariat(worker) in the name of country. So Mussolini developed the idea that a new type of Socialism was needed to account for the flaws of Marx' theory - one that would make Nationalism the center of its doctrine. The State would be the ideal substitute to ensure worker protection and welfare, and so Fascism was born (National Socialism).

Funny - all around the World, Socialists are seen as Patriotic. The only place Socialists are not seen as Patriotic is in the United States. And why? Because all Socialists hate what the US stands for. Name a Leftist ideal today and you will find Nazis and other Fascists were advocating those same exact ideas. And that led to two World Wars!
Patriotism has no place in Communist thought. All is class struggle and no differences between people or peoples exist except for class differences. Workers are the same everywhere. Capitalists too.

Moderator cut: Sorry. This isn't the Politics forum.

Last edited by mensaguy; 11-15-2018 at 04:42 PM.. Reason: Politics. Again.
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Old 11-15-2018, 05:26 PM
 
Location: Under Moon & Star
1,726 posts, read 620,470 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumann Koch View Post
You are implying that the Nazi's were Right Wing.

I would like to offer an argument that the Nazi were in fact Left-Wing fanatics, and not Right.
All right. You're wrong.

Nazi Germany was a fascist state. The defining element of fascism above all else is exalting and elevating the ethnic nation. Leftists strongly tend toward globalism and reject the ethnic basis of the state. To state that a fascist state is left-wing is laughably absurd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumann Koch View Post
Let's begin with the name of the party: Nazis - National Socialist Party. The name really says it all.
Let's begin with the name of East Germany - the German Democratic Republic. Are you gullible enough to believe that East Germany was democratic? It wasn't. Authoritarian regimes aren't known for truth in advertising, though this is obviously news to you.

More specifically, Adolf Hitler never altered the Nazi program established by party founded - and done so before the Austrian corporal showed up - by Anton Drexler. But he did ignore most of it, which is why German business and industry financed the Nazi's rise to power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumann Koch View Post
Nationalists can be Left or Right: Hitler was Left. Donald Trump is Right, just as Ronald Reagan was. And National Socialism = Fascism.
Good Lord. You explicitly think that fascism is left-wing. Clueless. Totally.

I'll stop there.

Basically, those who try and shoehorn Nazi Germany into modern concepts of 'left' or 'right' are tools with a silly agenda, targeting an audience of tools. I'm sure it plays well with the Breitbart crowd but for anyone with even half a clue, you simply out yourself as not even having that.
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Old 11-20-2018, 08:27 PM
 
Location: Cupertino, CA
834 posts, read 1,695,909 times
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Yes of course the Nazis were leftists. Just like how nowadays black is white, up is down and a certain world leader is the most honest and trustworthy one to date
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Old 11-25-2018, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
427 posts, read 93,093 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberleutnant View Post
Yes of course the Nazis were leftists. Just like how nowadays black is white, up is down and a certain world leader is the most honest and trustworthy one to date
Your short, sarcastic response is so 'Unter' you Oberleutnant.
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Old 11-25-2018, 02:28 PM
 
643 posts, read 183,222 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberleutnant View Post
A shame what would befall this great city in the coming years.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OQxVW2vDJw&t=37s

Every single one of those buildings in those scenes could have been rebuilt exactly as it was.

It's a choice that Germany made: to start WWII and target civilians and cities, leading to Allied destruction of large parts of Berlin in response, and not to rebuild Berlin as it was. I'd prefer the Berlin of pre-WWII to the Berlin of post-WWII, but we need to remember that this was simply choices of those in power in Germany.
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Old 11-26-2018, 12:47 PM
 
6,929 posts, read 4,510,971 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
Who won the war again?
That was very much the question posed in the USSR. Decades after the war, Berlin, Dresden and so forth were largely rebuilt. Leningrad was rebuilt too, but still teetering from shortages and privation. This was largely before my time, but I remember my parents pointing out buildings that were rebuilt by German convict-labor (the final batch wasn't released until 1955). Those were almost invariably the sturdiest buildings.

In 1995, I visited Berlin for the first time. The recently-former East Berlin was tidy, but drab and prosaic. The Reichstag still looked partially bombed-out. Coming back 20 years later, the transformation was shocking! A stroll along the Spree felt like stepping into a colorized film from the 1920s, except for some new structures carefully inserted amidst the old. Standing at the Brandenburger Tor, I was eerily reminded of the photograph of Rokossovsky, Zhukov and Montgomery... Zhukov coming as close as he ever did to smiling. I also thought of the places in William Shirer's "Decline and Fall of the Thrid Reich"... the opera house, the Hotel Adlon, the various ministries and embassies. The Germans certainly know how to build/rebuild.
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