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Old 11-26-2018, 03:11 PM
Status: "True liberal" (set 20 days ago)
 
3,868 posts, read 1,737,363 times
Reputation: 5290

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The NYT has a series about the rise of China. A many part series. The parallels to 1936 Belin are many. Here is just one excerpt, with me bolding some of it.

"But neither happened. Instead, China’s Communist leaders have defied expectations again and again. They embraced capitalism even as they continued to call themselves Marxists. They used repression to maintain power but without stifling entrepreneurship or innovation. Surrounded by foes and rivals, they avoided war, with one brief exception, even as they fanned nationalist sentiment at home. And they presided over 40 years of uninterrupted growth, often with unorthodox policies the textbooks said would fail."

That is the essence of fascism: market economics, political repression, elevated national sentiment. And it was the world's most extreme Communist regime that did it.

No one can argue with its success. The stories go on to list them: extreme poverty reduced from 75% of the population to less than 1%, ".. [leading] the world in the number of homeowners, internet users, college graduates and, by some counts, billionaires", :..China now produces more graduates in science and engineering every year than the United States, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan combined", transforming from backwater to America's greatest rival.

The formula has been market economics (which is widely understood and misunderstood) and political repression. To me, political repression is government without input from the people.

America tried the same thing at its founding: market economics and political repression. Both have gone off the rails. Regulation has corroded many markets and political repression has given way to the popular will in all things.

1936 Berlin lives on in China today, modified to suit the Oriental palate.
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Old 11-29-2018, 06:45 PM
 
Location: Annandale, VA
9,520 posts, read 7,697,457 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Interesting video.
However you won't get much sympathy from me brother. It's a shame what would befall many of the great cities of Europe in the coming years after this video, and the leaders of this city and yes, the citizens of this city are to blame.
I blame it on the victors of WW1 who decided to "stick it" to Germany with the bills. They were right to fight back.
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Old 12-04-2018, 05:31 PM
 
9,556 posts, read 2,621,918 times
Reputation: 8690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
I've seen that, too. 2 months after obliteration, Berlin is on its way. People are cleaning it up. Removing rubble, people going about their business, ironing the wash, going to the office.

Then I think about Port-au-Prince. 10+ years after an earthquake, and it looks like it happened yesterday.

I look at Detroit. 30 years since The Big Three left. It looks worse than Berlin in 7/45. Weeds, even trees growing on factory roofs. Acre upon acre of bare, bulldozed land. Dirt and filth everywhere.

Who won the war again?
The Spirit that won the war is much more evident in Germany today than in the USA....I must say your are correct in that WE don't do big things anymore. The Germans do. They plan for the future and care about their populace - and therefore, the populace cares about them (the leaders and institution, etc.).

When our daughter was clerking Law in DC she had a friend who was here who was training to be a German Judge. That's right...German Judges coming here as part of their education. Well, the woman came up to our house and stayed for a weekend and we had interesting discussions. This was approx. the year 2002.

When we were talking she was completely amazed that I (and Americans in general) don't feel as if we are part of the political process. She was actually flabbergasted. I remember to this day her surprise and look of shock...and statement that, in Germany, people DO feel as if they are listened to, from the bottom to the top.

It was sobering for me to think that our "creation" of the Fed. Republic there was closer to our ideals than we were.
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Old 12-04-2018, 05:45 PM
 
9,556 posts, read 2,621,918 times
Reputation: 8690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
The NYT has a series about the rise of China.
No one can argue with its success. The stories go on to list them: extreme poverty reduced from 75% of the population to less than 1%, ".. [leading] the world in the number of homeowners, internet users, college graduates and, by some counts, billionaires", :..China now produces more graduates in science and engineering every year than the United States, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan combined", transforming from backwater to America's greatest rival.

The formula has been market economics (which is widely understood and misunderstood) and political repression. To me, political repression is government without input from the people.

America tried the same thing at its founding: market economics and political repression. Both have gone off the rails. Regulation has corroded many markets and political repression has given way to the popular will in all things.

1936 Berlin lives on in China today, modified to suit the Oriental palate.
If one has a truly open mind, they have to return to square one and ask themselves to cast aside the very idea that "free market unregulated capitalism" is somehow inherently good for the human race. When we start from preconceived ideas, we end up in a black/white place as opposed to actually solving problems.

I think it is very difficult to compare China and Germany to the US for one main reason. Both of those places were fully populated and had already stripped their lands of many of the basic resources - whereas we started here with a unbelievable bounty in "free stuff". In our case, we could say "never has so little been done with so much" - except Russia probably beats us in that regards.

If 80% of the people in China are happy and prospering and thinks the country is going in the right direction - then who are we to talk?

Given the choice I'd rather have...
More civility rather than more free (hate) speech
Longer Life spans and better health rather than "freedom" of the marketplace to poison me.
High speed train networks bright and clean....then 12 lane roads which are still clogged.
Free Education (and higher ed based on merit) then "pull yourself up or suffer"....
Government financed R&D in important fields...then "Gotta make a profit fast" R&D.

I think the USA is stuck in the past when resources were nearly unlimited...and those that weren't we took by occupying a lot of the rest of the world (As Germany and Europe did also...and Japan tried to do).

I don't look at China or Germany as rivals. They are people and I wish them well. I am as proud of their positive achievements as they are. I guess I'm not a Nationalist.
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Old 12-05-2018, 06:56 AM
Status: "I am Santa Claus." (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Posting from my space yacht.
6,983 posts, read 2,649,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberleutnant View Post
I understand the point about armchair quarterbacking. But evil does not justify evil, and a spade must be called a spade. Despite what heinous crimes of Nazi Germany the average Red Army soldier witnessed, it does not exempt his actions from legitimate criticism.

It's a mad world when the rape of a surrendered population including the rape of children and old women is defended.
Why does the Russian treatment of the Germans in Berlin need to be justified? There's an assumption in a war that there is a good side and a bad side and it isn't always true. In a war between Nazis and Soviets, there were no good guys.
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Old 12-05-2018, 09:01 AM
 
840 posts, read 1,177,303 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troyfan View Post
They had it coming.
Serves them right.
They had no one to blame but themselves.

etc.

I don't feel any pity for what happened to them.

The Russians raped them? We firebombed them? As you sow, so shall you reap. What kind of justice would there be if they didn't experience any of the horrors they did to others?

Today the Germans are back in the circle of civilized nations. But it was necessary to extract vengeance from them first to make this possible.
What about the Red Army rape victims from Hungary, Poland and other countries? Did these victims not deserve it at all, or maybe just a little?

I see no justice in it, the world is not a better place because thousands of innocent women and children were raped.

The Nazis were a cancer on the world and should have been wiped out completely, and they were. For that we can all be happy. But to say that thousands of German women and children had to be terrorized for Germany to rejoin the circle of civilized nations is baffling-do you believe that fear and terror are the best mechanisms for the civilization of cultures?

If you say that whatever happened to the German soldiers was justified, I'm right with you, I could not agree more, but innocent civilians being raped and worse after they had already surrendered is unjustifiable.
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Old 12-05-2018, 11:49 PM
 
Location: Mid-Atlantic
23,087 posts, read 22,125,291 times
Reputation: 28180
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant View Post
That was very much the question posed in the USSR. Decades after the war, Berlin, Dresden and so forth were largely rebuilt. Leningrad was rebuilt too, but still teetering from shortages and privation. This was largely before my time, but I remember my parents pointing out buildings that were rebuilt by German convict-labor (the final batch wasn't released until 1955). Those were almost invariably the sturdiest buildings.

In 1995, I visited Berlin for the first time. The recently-former East Berlin was tidy, but drab and prosaic. The Reichstag still looked partially bombed-out. Coming back 20 years later, the transformation was shocking! A stroll along the Spree felt like stepping into a colorized film from the 1920s, except for some new structures carefully inserted amidst the old. Standing at the Brandenburger Tor, I was eerily reminded of the photograph of Rokossovsky, Zhukov and Montgomery... Zhukov coming as close as he ever did to smiling. I also thought of the places in William Shirer's "Decline and Fall of the Thrid Reich"... the opera house, the Hotel Adlon, the various ministries and embassies. The Germans certainly know how to build/rebuild.
I didn't think that the Reichstag looked partially bombed out in the 1980s. Perhaps it was neglected for a while after the wall went down. The Olympic stadium looked rather sad and a bit neglected.
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Old Today, 07:58 AM
Status: "True liberal" (set 20 days ago)
 
3,868 posts, read 1,737,363 times
Reputation: 5290
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
If one has a truly open mind, they have to return to square one and ask themselves to cast aside the very idea that "free market unregulated capitalism" is somehow inherently good for the human race. When we start from preconceived ideas, we end up in a black/white place as opposed to actually solving problems.

I think it is very difficult to compare China and Germany to the US for one main reason. Both of those places were fully populated and had already stripped their lands of many of the basic resources - whereas we started here with a unbelievable bounty in "free stuff". In our case, we could say "never has so little been done with so much" - except Russia probably beats us in that regards.

If 80% of the people in China are happy and prospering and thinks the country is going in the right direction - then who are we to talk?

Given the choice I'd rather have...
More civility rather than more free (hate) speech
Longer Life spans and better health rather than "freedom" of the marketplace to poison me.
High speed train networks bright and clean....then 12 lane roads which are still clogged.
Free Education (and higher ed based on merit) then "pull yourself up or suffer"....
Government financed R&D in important fields...then "Gotta make a profit fast" R&D.

I think the USA is stuck in the past when resources were nearly unlimited...and those that weren't we took by occupying a lot of the rest of the world (As Germany and Europe did also...and Japan tried to do).

I don't look at China or Germany as rivals. They are people and I wish them well. I am as proud of their positive achievements as they are. I guess I'm not a Nationalist.
Although it has nothing to do with Berlin in 1936 I'll reply anyway.

Until the early 19th Century the average daily wage was about $1. It had been $1 forever. For the great majority of people, although not for their rulers. There had been and were splendid imperia, but they had been built by slaves.

Enlightenment thought and practice and the liberal political and economic order which followed from them overthrew this. They allowed peoples' circumstances to increase rapidly and dramatically to what they are today.

As for China, the greatest single event in the struggle against human misery was the death of Mao Tse-Tung. He and and his policies exterminated people by the tens of millions. He held an entire race in thrall to one vision, his.

Once his successors adopted liberal economic policies, want was eliminated.

Everyone of those wonderful things you want to take advantage of are the fruits of market economies. They exist nowhere else. (Sweden, Switzerland, all of Europe have market economies as does all of the Far East except for North Korea, it being the only country in that part of the world which is poor.)

The earth is a sphere. It's volume is fixed. Nothing in the world is unlimited. But that does not imply that what can be added to it is. Matter can be reformed in ways that makes it ever more valuable. A hunk of marble was only a rock until it became "David". The Lake Country was only dirt and water until seen with new eyes. More prosaically, it was only iron ore until it became a GTO.

Personal freedom, to do and think as seems best to one, constrained to the extent necessary to not harm others, is the necessary condition for human progress. It's what was absent in Berlin in 1936 and in Peking in 1976.
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