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Old 12-21-2018, 12:47 PM
 
11,475 posts, read 17,017,095 times
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Quote:
I do find it disingenuous that people who rail against the "immorality" of Dresden never seem to mention Coventry. Why is it bad when we did it but not worth complaining about when the other guys did it? (And did it first, I might add.)
Exactly.

 
Old 12-21-2018, 01:05 PM
 
Location: Great Britain
9,424 posts, read 3,205,884 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
As I said before, I agree and have no problem with anything the RAF or the USAAF did during WWII.

However, the Bombing of Dresden has always caused some debate and controversy in the UK.
There are always going to be a few people, indeed the same people no doubt think that the US committed war crimes in relation to dropping Atomic Bombs on Japan.

The truth is it's war and Hitler and Germany had no hesitation in killing tens of millions and if the Germans or Japaese had developed Atomic Weapons first they would have used them on the cities of those they were at war with.

It was even believed Germany was close to developing Atmoic Weapons.

Towards the end of WW2 the Germans were raining down V-2 Rockets on London and Europe, which shows how advanced they were in terms of technology.

V-2 rocket - Wikipedia

Discovery of radioactive metal points to 'success' of Nazi atomic bomb programme - The Independent (2017)
 
Old 12-21-2018, 01:25 PM
 
18,682 posts, read 10,244,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post

As for strategic bombing: It was never as efficient as promised. Pre-war thinking was that the bomber would always get through and that massive bombing would have an immediate and devastating effect, but neither turned out to be true. The bombers suffered massive losses, and their precision was measured in miles. However, once you're fighting a war and have a massive investment in a heavy bomber force, you can't just shrug and say "Damn, didn't work as planned". You do what you can with what you have. And if you have a weapon that can only be expected to hit a target the size of a city, well - then you send them out to bomb cities.
In the last couple of years of the Vietnam War, I did B-52 "bomb scoring." Even though the fifty 500-lb bomb load devastated an area larger than a football stadium, it was startling how often they totally missed the target.

Through the Vietnam War, the statistic for aerial bombing accuracy was that it took 21 sorties to hit a target. If the Vietnamese thought we were bombing indiscriminately, they sure had good reason. We didn't intend to be indiscriminate--sending aircrews out on re-strike missions was dangerous and wasteful--but statistically we almost always missed what we were aiming at.

I was scoring attacks during the Persian Gulf War as well. For sure, the image-directed Tomahawks and laser-guided glide bombs were awesomely accurate. They amazed me every night with their precision. We never missed what we aimed at. We might not have aimed at the right target, but if we hit it, we had aimed at it.

But the dumb bombs dropped by the B-52 were just as dumb in the Persian Gulf War as they were in the Vietnam War.
 
Old 12-21-2018, 01:49 PM
 
11,475 posts, read 17,017,095 times
Reputation: 5653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
There are always going to be a few people, indeed the same people no doubt think that the US committed war crimes in relation to dropping Atomic Bombs on Japan.

The truth is it's war and Hitler and Germany had no hesitation in killing tens of millions and if the Germans or Japaese had developed Atomic Weapons first they would have used them on the cities of those they were at war with.

It was even believed Germany was close to developing Atmoic Weapons.

Towards the end of WW2 the Germans were raining down V-2 Rockets on London and Europe, which shows how advanced they were in terms of technology.

V-2 rocket - Wikipedia

Discovery of radioactive metal points to 'success' of Nazi atomic bomb programme - The Independent (2017)

Yes I know.

I fully agree with you.

Why do you not realize that?
 
Old 12-21-2018, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Howard County, Maryland
5,135 posts, read 3,280,989 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
However, the Bombing of Dresden has always caused some debate and controversy in the UK.

I wonder if the bombing of Coventry causes any debate and controversy in Germany. Or the Rape of Nanking and the destruction of Manila, etc., etc., etc., cause any debate and controversy in Japan. I have no desire to saddle today's Germans or Japanese with guilt over what their forefathers did. But I find it highly annoying that some people seem to think that it's only the Americans and the British who have anything to feel guilty over.
 
Old 12-21-2018, 02:10 PM
 
8,557 posts, read 8,778,996 times
Reputation: 26570
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World View Post
There are always going to be a few people, indeed the same people no doubt think that the US committed war crimes in relation to dropping Atomic Bombs on Japan.

The truth is it's war and Hitler and Germany had no hesitation in killing tens of millions and if the Germans or Japaese had developed Atomic Weapons first they would have used them on the cities of those they were at war with.

It was even believed Germany was close to developing Atmoic Weapons.

Towards the end of WW2 the Germans were raining down V-2 Rockets on London and Europe, which shows how advanced they were in terms of technology.

V-2 rocket - Wikipedia

Discovery of radioactive metal points to 'success' of Nazi atomic bomb programme - The Independent (2017)
The key word here is "believed".

In fact, Germany was not close to developing nuclear weapons. There is a process that really needs to be followed in terms of atomic weapons development. One of the first key steps is to build a reactor and achieve a nuclear chain reaction. The U.S. did that early on in about 1942. By 1945, Germany had not reached that point when it was overrun by Allied forces. Germany was apparently accumulating material that would have allowed them to build such a reactor, but they hadn't gotten to that point yet. It took America a full three years after doing so before the first atomic bomb was actually completed.

None of this detracts from the fact though that World War II was total war with both sides pulling out all stops. Civilians were not immune from being killed by both sides. When I visited Normandy about nine months ago, I learned that during the D-Day Invasion approximately 80,000 French civilians died in the fighting.

One atrocity that Japan committed that has been relegated to the back pages is that Allied prisoners were actually used in China for the purpose of experimenting with nerve gas. General MacArthur was interested in the research material obtained from this experiment and after the war made a deal to see that those responsible for this atrocity were not prosecuted for war crimes in return for all the written memoranda produced during the process.

I am beyond grateful that America and the allies did what we had to do to utterly defeat Germany and Japan. It would be a very different world than the one we have today if the outcome of the war had been different.

Last edited by markg91359; 12-21-2018 at 03:13 PM..
 
Old 12-21-2018, 02:41 PM
 
1,244 posts, read 313,499 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bus man View Post
I wonder if the bombing of Coventry causes any debate and controversy in Germany. Or the Rape of Nanking and the destruction of Manila, etc., etc., etc., cause any debate and controversy in Japan. I have no desire to saddle today's Germans or Japanese with guilt over what their forefathers did. But I find it highly annoying that some people seem to think that it's only the Americans and the British who have anything to feel guilty over.
Everyone has their part to blame. It was a global catastrophe that took many young Men's lives which could have easily been prevented. I believe that is why the U.N. came to greater prominence to prevent this from happening again and ensure everyone has a voice at the table.
 
Old 12-21-2018, 02:45 PM
 
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
6,583 posts, read 3,666,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bus man View Post
But I find it highly annoying that some people seem to think that it's only the Americans and the British who have anything to feel guilty over.
I have a bit of sympathy for that viewpoint, in that it’s based on the idea that as civilized people there are acts sufficiently low that we should never stoop to perform them. The problem, of course, is that it fails to take into consideration what was truly at stake (especially in Europe). In a war of survival, what use is a superior morality that, when strictly adhered to, gets you killed?

Germany HAD to be defeated, whatever it took. The continued survival of Western civilization depended on it. And while it can be argued that Japan could have been allowed to establish itself as the hegemon of Asia, that stance condemns a lot of innocent Asians to a life of horror. How would that be preferable to using whatever was required to defeat Imperial Japan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
The key word here is "believed".

In fact, Germany was not close to developing nuclear weapons. There is a process that really needs to be followed in terms of atomic weapons development. One of the first key steps is to build a reactor and achieve a nuclear chain reaction. The U.S. did that early on in about 1942. By 1945, Germany had not reached that point when it was overrun by Allied forces.
And that was largely due to Germany shooting itself in the foot via its rabid anti-Semitism. Many of the leading figures in the field of nuclear physics at that time were Jewish, and for some odd reason they decided not to stay in Europe once Hitler ascended to power. And guess where most of them ended up immigrating to?

It’s hard to make breakthroughs on the leading edge of technology when most of the field’s experts have left your country.
 
Old 12-21-2018, 02:50 PM
 
1,244 posts, read 313,499 times
Reputation: 1815
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aredhel View Post
And while it can be argued that Japan could have been allowed to establish itself as the hegemon of Asia, that stance condemns a lot of innocent Asians to a life of horror. How would that be preferable to using whatever was required to defeat Imperial Japan?
The Japanese soldiers in China were incredibly savage and ruthless under Imperial rule. The Chinese population would have been 1/5th of what it is today had they not been stopped. Their favorite past time was using "lower Asians" for scientific experiments, vessels for excrement and they viewed them as animals. The truly dangerous part was the Emperor and non-military civilians were completely unaware these atrocities were being committed. They general body politic remains in denial to the present day because only a select few on the ground were aware. There was no discipline, human rights or surveillance.
 
Old 12-21-2018, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
6,583 posts, read 3,666,987 times
Reputation: 16000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tencent View Post
The Japanese soldiers in China were incredibly savage and ruthless under Imperial rule. The Chinese population would have been 1/5th of what it is today had they not been stopped. Their favorite past time was using "lower Asians" for scientific experiments, vessels for excrement and they viewed them as animals. The truly dangerous part was the Emperor and non-military civilians were completely unaware these atrocities were being committed. They general body politic remains in denial to the present day because only a select few on the ground were aware. There was no discipline, human rights or surveillance.
Yes, Imperial Japan was every bit as horrific as the Nazis ever were. But too many younger people today don't realize that.
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