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Old 01-06-2019, 06:15 PM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
20,011 posts, read 13,442,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Brazen_3133 View Post
But the Scythians disappeared. Someone must have taken them over. I doubt it took that long for someone to invent a stirrup. It is just a piece of metal to hook you feet into. There have been cultures that have metal working for a very long time. I dont even think the Mongols had their own metal working. How can anyone ride a horse with one?

I doubt sucking on horse blood all the time will give you enough fuel to engage in battle. As for their riding, Most civilization were competent enough on horse back. Horses themselves can only take so work. There has to be limits to it. You should be able to formulate strategy and tactics around knowing your enemies limitations.
The stirrup sounds simple, but it took Europeans forever to invent their version of it. Much of that was due to the differences in terrain, and much was due to the different uses horses were put to.

Riding competency is very relative. It's one thing to ride a big draft horse used for plowing for a few miles, and it's a completely different thing to ride a horse up to 80 miles in a day, day after day.

The Mongols had more horses than any tribe on the planet, and Mongol children learn to ride as soon as they can walk. Their women ride as well as their men, and during war, the fighters didn't have to do anything but fight. The women and kids came with them and tended the horses and made the camps.

The Mongols knew how to work metal before the europeans. The bronze age began in China, as did the Iron age, which began when the Mongols controlled China.
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Old 01-06-2019, 06:44 PM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
20,011 posts, read 13,442,911 times
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My family bred horses for 3 generations. My brother and I never learned how to roller skate, but we were both riding by around age 4.

In 2003, my bro was invited on a sponsored goodwill horseback ride across most of Mongolia as part of a cowboy-meets-Mongolian setup that was arranged by the State dept. But my brother was the only real-deal cowboy in the group.

He was also the only one who went prepared for the 1,000 mile ride. He took his own rig and riding equipment. Since the country here in Idaho is very similar to the Mongolian steppe, he was the only rider who actually finished the trip on horseback.

He said the similarity between the buckaroos of the northwest and the Mongolians was remarkable. There were a lot of differences in their apparel, but the Mongolians admired his chinks, the short leather chaps that are worn here, and they liked his saddle, even though it was a bit too heavy for their tastes. He liked the heavy silk over-garment they wore just as much.

My bro laughed just as much at the old Russian cavalry saddles all the others had to ride on as the Mongols. All cavalry saddles seem to be designed for anything but riding for long distances.

He said the Mongol horses weren't the chunky little ponies I imagined them to be. They are slightly smaller than our mustangs, but have very good confirmation and extreme endurance. Like here, the heavier horses are used for packing, while the lighter, faster horses are used for riding.

Mongolia has about 10-20 million horses living on open range now. (No one knows for sure what the exact number is, but Mongolia has a close estimate.)

Historically, that's more than they had during the Soviet years, when a lot of their horses were eaten, but less than the number they had during their period of invasion. These days, camels, the traditional heavy carriers of the Mongols, have been replaced by old Russian Army trucks. Every family has a truck now to carry all the big stuff, but the camels are still used to carry all the little line camps that spread out once the big camp is set up.

The camels can travel at the same speed as horses. They are dromedaries, the camel with 2 humps, and are native to the Mongolian range.

The horses belong to them all equally, though the fastest and best stallions are more commonly owned by a tribe or families, and when someone needs a horse, they just go get one. If it isn't broken to ride, they hand the horse over to their children to ride until it's gentled.

There nomadic culture is as old as it gets. After the Soviet empire broke up, the Mongols abandoned all their Russian ways and went back to living on the steppes again. Mongolia is full of decaying agricultural communities, factories, etc. that no one lives or works in any more.

But when a child becomes old enough for school, families send them to Ulaanbaatar, the capital and largest population center. The kids live there and attend school, then join their parents on the steppes when spring breaks. My bro said many of the younger folks now speak English quite well. The state education is free, and the caretakers in Ulaanbaatar, usually some distant family members, are paid by the government to care for the kids while in school.
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Old 01-07-2019, 01:23 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
74,508 posts, read 66,140,508 times
Reputation: 71062
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
My family bred horses for 3 generations. My brother and I never learned how to roller skate, but we were both riding by around age 4.

In 2003, my bro was invited on a sponsored goodwill horseback ride across most of Mongolia as part of a cowboy-meets-Mongolian setup that was arranged by the State dept. But my brother was the only real-deal cowboy in the group.

He was also the only one who went prepared for the 1,000 mile ride. He took his own rig and riding equipment. Since the country here in Idaho is very similar to the Mongolian steppe, he was the only rider who actually finished the trip on horseback.

He said the similarity between the buckaroos of the northwest and the Mongolians was remarkable. There were a lot of differences in their apparel, but the Mongolians admired his chinks, the short leather chaps that are worn here, and they liked his saddle, even though it was a bit too heavy for their tastes. He liked the heavy silk over-garment they wore just as much.

My bro laughed just as much at the old Russian cavalry saddles all the others had to ride on as the Mongols. All cavalry saddles seem to be designed for anything but riding for long distances.

He said the Mongol horses weren't the chunky little ponies I imagined them to be. They are slightly smaller than our mustangs, but have very good confirmation and extreme endurance. Like here, the heavier horses are used for packing, while the lighter, faster horses are used for riding.

Mongolia has about 10-20 million horses living on open range now. (No one knows for sure what the exact number is, but Mongolia has a close estimate.)

Historically, that's more than they had during the Soviet years, when a lot of their horses were eaten, but less than the number they had during their period of invasion. These days, camels, the traditional heavy carriers of the Mongols, have been replaced by old Russian Army trucks. Every family has a truck now to carry all the big stuff, but the camels are still used to carry all the little line camps that spread out once the big camp is set up.

The camels can travel at the same speed as horses. They are dromedaries, the camel with 2 humps, and are native to the Mongolian range.

The horses belong to them all equally, though the fastest and best stallions are more commonly owned by a tribe or families, and when someone needs a horse, they just go get one. If it isn't broken to ride, they hand the horse over to their children to ride until it's gentled.

There nomadic culture is as old as it gets. After the Soviet empire broke up, the Mongols abandoned all their Russian ways and went back to living on the steppes again. Mongolia is full of decaying agricultural communities, factories, etc. that no one lives or works in any more.

But when a child becomes old enough for school, families send them to Ulaanbaatar, the capital and largest population center. The kids live there and attend school, then join their parents on the steppes when spring breaks. My bro said many of the younger folks now speak English quite well. The state education is free, and the caretakers in Ulaanbaatar, usually some distant family members, are paid by the government to care for the kids while in school.
This was informative as all get-out! Thank you for sharing this! If you have any more info from your bro's experience, feel free to continue.
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Old 01-07-2019, 09:57 PM
 
14,115 posts, read 12,934,798 times
Reputation: 6557
[quote=banjomike;54075495]All those doubts of yours are mistaken presumptions.

The Mongols horses were bred for endurance. Endurance makes a superior war horse.



They were not "bred." "Breeding" involves the careful selection process. More advanced civilizations were involved in such process, but Mogols were nomads. They just took what was there.



"A 1918 census of Mongolian animals found 1,500,000 horses.[15] The origins of the Mongolian breed are hard to determine. Nomads of the central Asian steppes have been documented as riding horses since 2000 BC. Tests have shown, that among all horse breeds, Mongol horses feature the largest genetic variety, followed by the Tuwinian horses. This indicates that it is a very archaic breed suffering little human-induced selection."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_horse


Quote:
Europeans didn't use the stirrup at that time. Their saddles were designed to hold them on their horse by the waist.
What "that time?"


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...at_Berezuy.jpg


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...e_i_Glebe.jpeg



"The stirrup was invented in China in the first few centuries AD and spread westward through the nomadic peoples of Central Eurasia.[3][4] The use of paired stirrups is credited to the Chinese Jin Dynasty and came to Europe during the Middle Ages."




Middle ages - that's 5th to 15th century; Temujin ( better known as Ghengis Khan) - that's 1200ies.

(So that you would know.)
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Old 01-07-2019, 10:08 PM
 
14,115 posts, read 12,934,798 times
Reputation: 6557
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
Some of those tribes became related to the Mongols over time. Most of the Slavic tribes ended up with a lot of Mongol blood in them.

it wasn't from hostilities either; since they all were horse tribes, there was a lot of peaceful trade that went from east to west as horses were an equally valuable commodity for them all.

This gets funnier and funnier.
Nope, wrong again.

"The term by which this subjection is commonly designated, the Mongol or Tatar "yoke", suggests terrible oppression, but in reality these nomadic invaders from Mongolia were not such cruel, oppressive taskmasters.[11] In the first place, they never settled in the country, and they had little direct dealing with the inhabitants. In accordance with the admonitions of Genghis Khan to his children and grandchildren, they retained their pastoral mode of life, so that the subject races, agriculturists and dwellers in towns were not disturbed in their ordinary avocations. Golden Horde instituted census, taxes and tributes on the conquered lands, which were usually collected by local princes and brought to Sarai. It was only in the 14th and 15th centuries, with the rise of the Tatar khanates, that slave raids on the Slavic population became significant, with the purpose of trading slaves with the Ottoman Empire."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol..._Kievan_Rus%27


So much for "peaceful trade that went from east to west."

You are talking about sedentary people vs attacking nomads.
BTW yes, Russians actually did breed horses, since they needed them for military operations ( among other things.)
Mongols still use that wild breed the way they've found it in the steppe centuries ago.
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Old 01-07-2019, 10:17 PM
 
14,115 posts, read 12,934,798 times
Reputation: 6557
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
My family bred horses for 3 generations. My brother and I never learned how to roller skate, but we were both riding by around age 4.

In 2003, my bro was invited on a sponsored goodwill horseback ride across most of Mongolia as part of a cowboy-meets-Mongolian setup that was arranged by the State dept. But my brother was the only real-deal cowboy in the group.

He was also the only one who went prepared for the 1,000 mile ride. He took his own rig and riding equipment. Since the country here in Idaho is very similar to the Mongolian steppe, he was the only rider who actually finished the trip on horseback.

He said the similarity between the buckaroos of the northwest and the Mongolians was remarkable. There were a lot of differences in their apparel, but the Mongolians admired his chinks, the short leather chaps that are worn here, and they liked his saddle, even though it was a bit too heavy for their tastes. He liked the heavy silk over-garment they wore just as much.

My bro laughed just as much at the old Russian cavalry saddles all the others had to ride on as the Mongols. All cavalry saddles seem to be designed for anything but riding for long distances.

He said the Mongol horses weren't the chunky little ponies I imagined them to be. They are slightly smaller than our mustangs, but have very good confirmation and extreme endurance. Like here, the heavier horses are used for packing, while the lighter, faster horses are used for riding.

Mongolia has about 10-20 million horses living on open range now. (No one knows for sure what the exact number is, but Mongolia has a close estimate.)

Historically, that's more than they had during the Soviet years, when a lot of their horses were eaten, but less than the number they had during their period of invasion. These days, camels, the traditional heavy carriers of the Mongols, have been replaced by old Russian Army trucks. Every family has a truck now to carry all the big stuff, but the camels are still used to carry all the little line camps that spread out once the big camp is set up.

The camels can travel at the same speed as horses. They are dromedaries, the camel with 2 humps, and are native to the Mongolian range.

The horses belong to them all equally, though the fastest and best stallions are more commonly owned by a tribe or families, and when someone needs a horse, they just go get one. If it isn't broken to ride, they hand the horse over to their children to ride until it's gentled.

There nomadic culture is as old as it gets. After the Soviet empire broke up, the Mongols abandoned all their Russian ways and went back to living on the steppes again. Mongolia is full of decaying agricultural communities, factories, etc. that no one lives or works in any more.

But when a child becomes old enough for school, families send them to Ulaanbaatar, the capital and largest population center. The kids live there and attend school, then join their parents on the steppes when spring breaks. My bro said many of the younger folks now speak English quite well. The state education is free, and the caretakers in Ulaanbaatar, usually some distant family members, are paid by the government to care for the kids while in school.

Mongolia was never "Soviet" - they were never part of the Soviet Union.


Your bro is full of it, along with his mythical "old Russian cavalry saddles"
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Old 01-07-2019, 11:15 PM
 
14,115 posts, read 12,934,798 times
Reputation: 6557
Yet again - Donchak/Budennyi beauties ( horses that were actually BRED)...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd3V0bQWFmY&t=316s



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fI0...IJH-A-8ATmKR0q



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z97WM5ofPKM&t=129s



and Mongolian wild horse




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx5mSOD6OZU


ughh...no, don't even tell me)))
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Old 01-07-2019, 11:40 PM
 
5,694 posts, read 5,884,987 times
Reputation: 2536
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
All those doubts of yours are mistaken presumptions.

The Mongols horses were bred for endurance. Endurance makes a superior war horse.
The Mongol bow's pull is typically about 100 lbs, but the Mongols didn't pull a bow like the Europeans did; they used them like the Native Americans, with a short hard pull and quick release, like a snap shot.

All the Mongol's military tactics were cavalry-based. They didn't use foot soldiers, and they didn't travel with encumbering wagon trains or heavy equipment. This allowed them tremendous speed and flexibility against armies more accustomed to fighting on foot with each other or laying into long sieges. The Mongols were like water flowing over stones. Win or lose, they never lingered afterward; they kept moving on.

Since the Mongols rode standing in stirrups, their aim was pretty darned good. The Mongols practiced from early childhood to shoot a bow atop a horse, just as spearmen in chariots practiced in chariots. The Mongols were good enough shots that they could live on ground rodents instead of hunting large animals, and they actually preferred rodents, as they were faster to eat.

Europeans didn't use the stirrup at that time. Their saddles were designed to hold them on their horse by the waist. Mongols' saddles were designed to give them a solid prop to lean against while they were shooting their bows, and they carried 2 large quivers on either side of the 'horn', so arrows were fast to nock in the bow.

There were other things that the Mongols did too- they were constantly on the move when at war. And that means constant; when pressed hard, the Mongols only stopped long enough to tap a vein on their horse's leg to drink a cup of their blood as nourishment, and would sleep in their saddle. (Their stirrups kept them from falling off.)
The Mongols could be reported 100 miles away, a 5 -day journey for a European army of the time, and could be at the city gates within less than 24 hours. Their speed was always a huge surprise to their enemies.
And how is it only the Mongol tribe came to become only ones to possess such horses on a wide open step? Did they develop some breeding secret no one else had? A bow is only as strong as the pull. Pulling 100lbs every time be exhausting. Even if short and quick it cannot be easy to pull 100lbs, or else must not have much power in shot. Standing up will still hard if riding at high speed. As much as it is to shoot a gun from fast moving car. And how will you control horse will shooting?

Now you can shoot into general area without aiming sure that will work. But that means you end up wasting a lot of arrows. The kind of army does not matter. There must always be baggage train. If you are dependent on projectile weapons, where are you going to get your ammo from? If you carry it all yourself, will make yourself will way you down.

Either way, how is anything you wrote not already present with the other nomads before, after and contemporaneous with Mongols? No way more advanced metallurgical societies did not develop stirrup before Nomads. If you are a nomad how do you mine for minerals?
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Old 01-07-2019, 11:43 PM
 
5,694 posts, read 5,884,987 times
Reputation: 2536
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
The stirrup sounds simple, but it took Europeans forever to invent their version of it. Much of that was due to the differences in terrain, and much was due to the different uses horses were put to.

Riding competency is very relative. It's one thing to ride a big draft horse used for plowing for a few miles, and it's a completely different thing to ride a horse up to 80 miles in a day, day after day.

The Mongols had more horses than any tribe on the planet, and Mongol children learn to ride as soon as they can walk. Their women ride as well as their men, and during war, the fighters didn't have to do anything but fight. The women and kids came with them and tended the horses and made the camps.

The Mongols knew how to work metal before the europeans. The bronze age began in China, as did the Iron age, which began when the Mongols controlled China.
iron age began when Mongols controlled China ? ? ? Knew how to work metal before Euros ? ? ? Source ? ? ?

How can they have more horses? The Mongols we are talking about were a small tribe within a larger confederacy? Mongols did not occupy all of present day Mongolia, nor had the numbers.
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Old 01-08-2019, 12:12 AM
 
14,115 posts, read 12,934,798 times
Reputation: 6557
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Brazen_3133 View Post
iron age began when Mongols controlled China ? ? ? Knew how to work metal before Euros ? ? ? Source ? ? ?

From what I see on this picture - #2 is made of wood. And it's "Mongolia, XI-XII century.)


http://kronk.spb.ru/img/kyzlasov-il-1973-6.jpg




Quote:
How can they have more horses? The Mongols we are talking about were a small tribe within a larger confederacy? Mongols did not occupy all of present day Mongolia, nor had the numbers.
These horses were/are WILD horses, that happen to live in that part of the world. That's my understanding.
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