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Old 12-25-2018, 03:09 AM
 
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How could or why couldnt the Mongols under Temujin, and his sons be stopped?

What makes the Mongols any different than the Khazars, Xiong Nu, Scythians, Sarmatians, Gokturks, Kushans, Hephthalites, Huns, Xianbei, Parthians, Timurids etc, etc?

So they have lots of horses, but Mongol steppe is pretty barren landscape. All they have in abundance is animals. How they make arrows? They need trees. Where did they get the metals to make swords, and spears, and armour?

I dont believe horse archery gives that much of an advantage. First there is no way to deploy a more powerful bow on horse back while riding. It will be much less accurate, and I doubt you can reload that fast. How will you control the horse at same time? I have seen videos in which they try to use their teeth to hold reigns. Yeh right, good luck with that.

Sure the recurve bow can be powerful, but while riding, maintaining balance, I doubt you can draw as fully as a person standing. The nomads not the only people who can make strong strong ranged weapons. There is no way. They lack the resources of settled peoples to experiment.

Plus a bow is only as strong as the person pulling it. I doubt they can make a personal bow with enough leverage for a human to pull while riding on horse back, able to punch through quality shields, that wont cause massive fatigue in the user or give them more range than a ranged weapon deployed from standing.

Even if you are on horse back, you still have to ride into range and then get out. The only way to do this is to make a loop. That should be their weakness. As they are riding in to attack infantry, you can send your cavalry to other end of the loop. You infantry will simply keep marching forward. The horse archer column will be trapped.
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Old 12-25-2018, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Texas
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The Mongols were one of many waves of mounted herdsmen to erupt from the Eurasian steppe to conquer their more sedentary neighbors. The surprising thing is that those more "settled" civilizations succumbed to the same strategies and tactics century after century.



Huns, Avars, Bulgars, Turks, and others all used pretty much the same approach and it worked repeatedly until the widespread use of firearms made mounted archers obsolete.
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Old 12-25-2018, 03:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
The Mongols were one of many waves of mounted herdsmen to erupt from the Eurasian steppe to conquer their more sedentary neighbors. The surprising thing is that those more "settled" civilizations succumbed to the same strategies and tactics century after century.



Huns, Avars, Bulgars, Turks, and others all used pretty much the same approach and it worked repeatedly until the widespread use of firearms made mounted archers obsolete.
I tried to make the point that the other nomad horsemen have been beaten before. The chinese have beaten them numerous times. Alexander had some success against them. The Romans, the Persians, and Byzantines have kept them in check or in line for quite some time.

How could the early firearms be better than say long bows, and crossbows though?
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Old 12-25-2018, 04:54 PM
 
Location: Texas
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Firearms, especially cannons, would take out the horses as well as the riders.



It's just historical fact that the Mongols were the last in a long succession of barbarian migrations/conquests whose end coincided with the advent of widespread use of guns. And although the Mongol Empire was vast and impressively organized, it didn't last long beyond its first generation of rulers.



Temujin/Ghengis Khan was a visionary in terms of his ability to hold such a huge empire together and to absorb so many disparate peoples into a more or less cohesive entity by allowing an unusual amount of freedom and respect for the cultures/faiths within its borders.


With the exception of his grandson Kublai, his offspring proved less capable. They simply weren't able to continue his manner of governing. Internal jealousies outweighed their leadership and led to strife that resulted in the empire crumbling.
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Old 12-25-2018, 09:27 PM
 
5,682 posts, read 5,873,262 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
Firearms, especially cannons, would take out the horses as well as the riders.



It's just historical fact that the Mongols were the last in a long succession of barbarian migrations/conquests whose end coincided with the advent of widespread use of guns. And although the Mongol Empire was vast and impressively organized, it didn't last long beyond its first generation of rulers.



Temujin/Ghengis Khan was a visionary in terms of his ability to hold such a huge empire together and to absorb so many disparate peoples into a more or less cohesive entity by allowing an unusual amount of freedom and respect for the cultures/faiths within its borders.


With the exception of his grandson Kublai, his offspring proved less capable. They simply weren't able to continue his manner of governing. Internal jealousies outweighed their leadership and led to strife that resulted in the empire crumbling.
His sons were pretty good at attacking people though, and this is what I want to discuss. When the chinese did eventually beat the Mongols, and restore chinese rule, I dont think they had guns yet.

I sure they can take out the horses with crossbow bolts too, or at least weaken them, hurt them enough to make them apprehensive towards riding into combat. Early Firearms/Canons are slow to reload, and canon slow to aim.
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Old 12-25-2018, 10:12 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
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I'm not aware that anyone was able to stop the Scythians. Like the Mongols, they invaded large areas of Asia. Unlike the Scythians, though, the Mongols under Chingiz Khan were able to unite and maintain unity among all the disparate lands and peoples they conquered.

The Mongols were exceptional horsemen and marksmen. They grew up in the saddle, and had plenty of practice using their weapons while riding. Their boots were designed to hook into the stirrup (they invented stirrups, btw) in such a way, that they were extremely stable, while standing as they rode and shot their arrows.

They had whistling arrows, which were heard from far away before they were close enough to be seen by their targets. The mere sound of the seemingly invisible arrows struck terror in their enemies. They also had a variety of battlefield techniques they used to gain the upper hand, such as: pretending to retreat, then setting up an ambush, when the enemy came after the retreating army, thinking it would be easy pickings.

They were able to advance much faster than anyone else, riding day and night. They didn't have to stop to eat (i.e hunt and cook meat), as they could subsist during a long journey by tapping into the blood of some of their horses; in summers they could carry dried dairy products with them.

The steppe isn't entirely barren. There's forestland in Mongolia, and north of Mongolia, in the Lake Baikal region.There are other forested areas in other parts of the empire they came to dominate.

The Mongols ruled China for about 100 years. Toward the end, China's Mongol overlords had become corrupt, so the leadership wasn't always made up of the best talent. Also, there were natural disasters that weakened their power. So they were no longer the formidable force they had been, earlier on.
https://www.travelchinaguide.com/int...an/decline.htm
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Old 12-26-2018, 01:10 AM
 
Location: NW Indiana
1,252 posts, read 1,124,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
I'm not aware that anyone was able to stop the Scythians. Like the Mongols, they invaded large areas of Asia. Unlike the Scythians, though, the Mongols under Chingiz Khan were able to unite and maintain unity among all the disparate lands and peoples they conquered.

The Mongols were exceptional horsemen and marksmen. They grew up in the saddle, and had plenty of practice using their weapons while riding. Their boots were designed to hook into the stirrup (they invented stirrups, btw) in such a way, that they were extremely stable, while standing as they rode and shot their arrows.

They had whistling arrows, which were heard from far away before they were close enough to be seen by their targets. The mere sound of the seemingly invisible arrows struck terror in their enemies. They also had a variety of battlefield techniques they used to gain the upper hand, such as: pretending to retreat, then setting up an ambush, when the enemy came after the retreating army, thinking it would be easy pickings.

They were able to advance much faster than anyone else, riding day and night. They didn't have to stop to eat (i.e hunt and cook meat), as they could subsist during a long journey by tapping into the blood of some of their horses; in summers they could carry dried dairy products with them.

The steppe isn't entirely barren. There's forestland in Mongolia, and north of Mongolia, in the Lake Baikal region.There are other forested areas in other parts of the empire they came to dominate.

The Mongols ruled China for about 100 years. Toward the end, China's Mongol overlords had become corrupt, so the leadership wasn't always made up of the best talent. Also, there were natural disasters that weakened their power. So they were no longer the formidable force they had been, earlier on.
https://www.travelchinaguide.com/int...an/decline.htm
Add to all of this, that the Mongols were initially led by some of the greatest military minds of all time. Most lists of the "greatest generals" will have Ghengis Khan in the top 10 if not top 5 and Subotai is usually somewhere high of the list as well.
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Old 12-26-2018, 01:16 AM
 
5,682 posts, read 5,873,262 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
I'm not aware that anyone was able to stop the Scythians. Like the Mongols, they invaded large areas of Asia. Unlike the Scythians, though, the Mongols under Chingiz Khan were able to unite and maintain unity among all the disparate lands and peoples they conquered.

The Mongols were exceptional horsemen and marksmen. They grew up in the saddle, and had plenty of practice using their weapons while riding. Their boots were designed to hook into the stirrup (they invented stirrups, btw) in such a way, that they were extremely stable, while standing as they rode and shot their arrows.

They had whistling arrows, which were heard from far away before they were close enough to be seen by their targets. The mere sound of the seemingly invisible arrows struck terror in their enemies. They also had a variety of battlefield techniques they used to gain the upper hand, such as: pretending to retreat, then setting up an ambush, when the enemy came after the retreating army, thinking it would be easy pickings.

They were able to advance much faster than anyone else, riding day and night. They didn't have to stop to eat (i.e hunt and cook meat), as they could subsist during a long journey by tapping into the blood of some of their horses; in summers they could carry dried dairy products with them.

The steppe isn't entirely barren. There's forestland in Mongolia, and north of Mongolia, in the Lake Baikal region.There are other forested areas in other parts of the empire they came to dominate.

The Mongols ruled China for about 100 years. Toward the end, China's Mongol overlords had become corrupt, so the leadership wasn't always made up of the best talent. Also, there were natural disasters that weakened their power. So they were no longer the formidable force they had been, earlier on.
https://www.travelchinaguide.com/int...an/decline.htm
But the Scythians disappeared. Someone must have taken them over. I doubt it took that long for someone to invent a stirrup. It is just a piece of metal to hook you feet into. There have been cultures that have metal working for a very long time. I dont even think the Mongols had their own metal working. How can anyone ride a horse with one?

I doubt sucking on horse blood all the time will give you enough fuel to engage in battle. As for their riding, Most civilization were competent enough on horse back. Horses themselves can only take so work. There has to be limits to it. You should be able to formulate strategy and tactics around knowing your enemies limitations.
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Old 12-26-2018, 09:56 AM
 
1,275 posts, read 580,047 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Brazen_3133 View Post
But the Scythians disappeared. Someone must have taken them over. I doubt it took that long for someone to invent a stirrup. It is just a piece of metal to hook you feet into. There have been cultures that have metal working for a very long time. I dont even think the Mongols had their own metal working. How can anyone ride a horse with one?

I doubt sucking on horse blood all the time will give you enough fuel to engage in battle. As for their riding, Most civilization were competent enough on horse back. Horses themselves can only take so work. There has to be limits to it. You should be able to formulate strategy and tactics around knowing your enemies limitations.
Stirrups are also made of wood, so metal is irrelevant for that purpose. Don't get too worked up about this topic, as there's a lot of information that is not knowable.
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Old 12-26-2018, 12:38 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
74,382 posts, read 66,026,319 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ Brazen_3133 View Post
But the Scythians disappeared. Someone must have taken them over. I doubt it took that long for someone to invent a stirrup. It is just a piece of metal to hook you feet into. There have been cultures that have metal working for a very long time. I dont even think the Mongols had their own metal working. How can anyone ride a horse with one?

I doubt sucking on horse blood all the time will give you enough fuel to engage in battle. As for their riding, Most civilization were competent enough on horse back. Horses themselves can only take so work. There has to be limits to it. You should be able to formulate strategy and tactics around knowing your enemies limitations.
They travelled with spare horses, so they'd switch off riding them, as they went. The horse blood they used while traveling, not when they'd arrived at their destinations and set up camp.

How can you ride a horse without stirrups? lol. Have you never seen someone do that? It was common, before the invention of the stirrup, and common to Native Americans, when the horse was first introduced, too. (Some Native American tribes still have bareback racing events and other horsemanship competitions.) You don't need metal-smithing to make a stirrup. Perfectly good ones can be made from wood.

The Scythians became the Ossetians, in the Caucasus, who still speak a Scythian-derived language. Some were absorbed into other Asian populations, like the Khakass, in the Altai mountains, and the Tajik, of northern Iran and Tajikistan. At various times, they were expelled from one area or another, and moved to new areas, like northwest India.

The Alans, considered to be a Scythian tribe, migrated into Europe, influencing cultures there, and warring as mercenaries. They were eventually absorbed by the local populations throughout Western Europe. The mounted warriors that inspired the King Arthur legend, the Knights of the Round Table, are believed to have been Alans. Some settled in the Caucasus; where they have a small republic in the Russian Federation, known as Northern Ossetia-Alania. (There's also South Ossetia, in Georgia.) Other Scythians settled in eastern Romania, centered around the city and county of Iași (pronounced: "Yash"). Scythian descendants are scattered all over Eurasia.
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