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Old 01-21-2019, 07:27 PM
 
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Trying to choose my words carefully here. Some have used the IRA terrorist attacks as an example of modern day Christianity committing terrorist attacks as a way of defending or deflecting criticism of Islamic terrorist attacks. I know the difference between Protestants and Catholics plays a part in the fight but wasnít these attacks more about politics, English vs Irish? Is part of the issue the history of the English Crown being the head of the Church of England? Please donít let this revolve into a who started what and which side did this or that. Iím mainly asking about actions from within the past century and whether it was more political or nationalist than about religion.
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Old 01-21-2019, 10:44 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
21,166 posts, read 26,386,146 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victimofGM View Post
Trying to choose my words carefully here. Some have used the IRA terrorist attacks as an example of modern day Christianity committing terrorist attacks as a way of defending or deflecting criticism of Islamic terrorist attacks. I know the difference between Protestants and Catholics plays a part in the fight but wasnít these attacks more about politics, English vs Irish? Is part of the issue the history of the English Crown being the head of the Church of England? Please donít let this revolve into a who started what and which side did this or that. Iím mainly asking about actions from within the past century and whether it was more political or nationalist than about religion.
I'm from the US. I've done a lot of digging. It's a mess. Start off by googling Ulster Province. There are a couple of really good large websites. Then skip to the potato famine. Then read up on the actual rebellion in the early 20th century.

If you don't go all the way back the later pieces won't make as much sense. It's layer upon layer.

Ulsterman has a thread on the history board. You might get something from that to help answer your questions.

As far as the religion portion of what you want to know, the settlement of Ulster Province was supposed to be very specific, religiously. It wasn't that way in reality. I had Quaker ancestors who came to the colonies from County Antrim. Technically, they weren't supposed to be there, but they were.

Also, keep in mind that during the English Civil War Cromwell scattered prisoners all over, including Ireland, besides sending them to the North American colonies.

It's just a real mess, hundreds of years of mess.
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Old 01-23-2019, 03:49 AM
 
Location: Glasgow Scotland
14,703 posts, read 11,940,598 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victimofGM View Post
Trying to choose my words carefully here. Some have used the IRA terrorist attacks as an example of modern day Christianity committing terrorist attacks as a way of defending or deflecting criticism of Islamic terrorist attacks. I know the difference between Protestants and Catholics plays a part in the fight but wasnít these attacks more about politics, English vs Irish? Is part of the issue the history of the English Crown being the head of the Church of England? Please donít let this revolve into a who started what and which side did this or that. Iím mainly asking about actions from within the past century and whether it was more political or nationalist than about religion.
Of course this will start a stooshie, who are you kidding.
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Old 01-23-2019, 05:35 AM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
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Attacks by Islamic terrorists and attacks by groups like the IRA and UVF are similar in being political acts cloaked in religion, but they don't justify each other.
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Old 01-24-2019, 07:56 PM
 
8,704 posts, read 8,880,791 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victimofGM View Post
Trying to choose my words carefully here. Some have used the IRA terrorist attacks as an example of modern day Christianity committing terrorist attacks as a way of defending or deflecting criticism of Islamic terrorist attacks. I know the difference between Protestants and Catholics plays a part in the fight but wasn’t these attacks more about politics, English vs Irish? Is part of the issue the history of the English Crown being the head of the Church of England? Please don’t let this revolve into a who started what and which side did this or that. I’m mainly asking about actions from within the past century and whether it was more political or nationalist than about religion.
Religion is not the major part of the conflict over northern Ireland.

What is at the root of it was the English occupation and colonization of Ireland. The British did not behave well during their years of occupation. The Potato Famine of the 1840's was partly the result of the failure of the potato crop, but the part that is left out is that there might have been enough food for the Irish if the British colonists hadn't insisted on exporting other crops that could have fed the Irish people. The British fought Irish agitation for self rule for decades. Finally, in 1916, the Easter Uprising took place in Dublin. A group fighting for Irish independence occupied the General Post Office and other buildings in Dublin. The British brutally crushed the uprising and executed about a dozen leaders of the movement. When the Irish saw the hopelessness of defeating the British Army in open warfare, a guerrilla war took place between the Irish and British following World War I. Ultimately, around 1920, the British agreed to Irish self rule. However, two major conditions were imposed on the Irish. First, they were not an independent country. They were the Irish free state which allowed the British a certain measure of control over Ireland. Second, the north was cut off from the rest of Ireland because of its majority Protestant population and Northern Ireland remained part of the United Kingdom. These terms were very controversial and lead to a civil war in Ireland. Leader Michael Collins died in that war.

In any event, around 1969 tensions between the Protestants (English) and the Catholic (Irish) people in Northern Ireland came to a head. The Irish Republican Army launched another guerrilla war against the majority Protestant government in Northern Ireland and hundreds of people died in bombings and gunfights. The conflict has pretty much been resolved since about 2000, but it hasn't gone completely away. Trouble could erupt again.

The major reason for conflict is because of the antipathy that exists between some Irish and the British people that goes back to the years of colonization.

Last edited by markg91359; 01-24-2019 at 09:25 PM..
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Old 01-25-2019, 02:00 AM
 
Location: Teach an Fhir Bholg
12,183 posts, read 13,513,342 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by victimofGM View Post
Trying to choose my words carefully here. Some have used the IRA terrorist attacks as an example of modern day Christianity committing terrorist attacks as a way of defending or deflecting criticism of Islamic terrorist attacks. I know the difference between Protestants and Catholics plays a part in the fight but wasnít these attacks more about politics, English vs Irish? Is part of the issue the history of the English Crown being the head of the Church of England? Please donít let this revolve into a who started what and which side did this or that. Iím mainly asking about actions from within the past century and whether it was more political or nationalist than about religion.
You need to know which IRA and when. The early 1900s, the 1950s, the 1970s? The organization and situations in these eras was not the same. Thus, you need to be very specific about the topic.

And given your posting above, it would clearly be necessary to examine the UVF and other nominally Protestant, pro-English armed groups. Otherwise you will have a very skewed, unbalanced picture of the topic.

Also, I have never heard anyone make the statement contained in the first sentence of the OP.
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Old 01-25-2019, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
10,163 posts, read 8,323,256 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevxu View Post

Also, I have never heard anyone make the statement contained in the first sentence of the OP.
It's hogwash.
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Old 01-25-2019, 11:13 AM
 
Location: London
3,995 posts, read 3,446,434 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Religion is not the major part of the conflict over northern Ireland.
It is. Every Ulster person I have ever known has at some time attempted to gain what religion I am. It is in their nature to do so. I make a point of not telling them. They talk about Catholics and Protestants in some way far too often. I have worked with people for five years or more and never knew what religion they were. Ulster people want to know what side you are on. It is in their psyche.

Ireland was not a country as we know it. It was split into fiefdoms with one heavy fighting the next regularly. The English were the first to unite the country. In the end the Irish had their own assembly and MPs at Westminster.

The words British colonists is wrong. The countries and people were intertwined. The Potato Famine of the 1840's was also in England and other parts of Europe. The Irish are surrounded by fish but fish was never a major part of their diet, relying far too much on the potato. When the blight came they were unprepared to harvest the seas. The British regarded the Irish, collectively, as lazy. Drunkenness was rife in the country, with most only doing enough to survive. Education was frowned upon. Their diet was poor fuelled by alcohol. Signs like, "No dogs, blacks or Irish", were common in the USA. A major problem of Ireland was that the land was owned by a few people. The British started to put that right establishing the Irish Land Commission to break up ownership. The commission was dissolved in 2001 - job done. This was not done in Britain as the land is still owned by a few people. Also to prevent famines, the British government sourced food from other continents, cereals from North America, meat from Argentina, etc, in mainly British owned farms and ranches. The new steam ships were used to ensure Europe was fed and never went hungry.

During a major war, WW1, the Irish started a violent rebellion. Irish regiments were serving in the trenches in France and when returning received tumultuous receptions. After the 1916 at the Dublin Post Office, soldiers two deep had to lined up preventing the crowd from lynching the rebels, as it was seen as unpatriotic and stabbing the country in the back when fighting a major war. When the men, who had killed people, were executed the Irish changed their tune, and didn't like "the English killing our boys". The death penalty was mandatory in the UK then. The Irish mentality has always eluded the rest of the western world.

The British eventually allowed the Irish independence in phases. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc all gained independence not by starting a shooting match. Ireland gained full independence in 1949. Ulster was meant to be a part of it, which was scheduled for independence. The Protestants armed themselves forming militias stating they were going to fight against rule from Dublin, which they regarded as rule by the Catholic church, calling it "Rome rule". Which eventually proved they were not that far off. After independence the Irish fought a Civil war as a power struggle ensued.

The Northern Irish were given a free hand at running the province, which was the wrong thing to do. The majority Protestants suppressed the Catholics who rose in civil rights marches, as the blacks did 10 years earlier in the southern USA. The Protestant police and police reservists, the B Specials, brutally put them down. In one Catholic village a police Land Rover drove down a street of terraced house shooting a machine gun over head height at the houses. The Dublin prime minister sent Southern Irish troops up to Ulster but they wisely stopped at the border, otherwise British troops would have been seizing parts of the south. In 1969 London sent in extra soldiers to maintain peace who were greeted as saviours from the brutal Protestant police. The Northern Irish government protested to London at the cosy relationship the soldiers had with the Catholics. The troops were ordered to stand away from the local population. Then Catholic terrorist groups formed shooting at the soldiers, police and Protestants forming up with groups from the south, with the troubles continuing for decades. The IRA was illegal in the south but not the north. EU membership rendered it all quite pointless as borders were open with free trade. The Good Friday agreement has put a lid on the problems. It is always boiling with every now and then the lid being blown off. Another few decades of violence? History says there will be.

The major reason for conflict is that the two communities in Ulster detest each other for reasons that defy logic. I know one Ulster lady who is a Protestant who was dating a Catholic. He was tied up, blindfolded, taken into a field, beaten with a gun pushed into his mouth and told to "stop seeing her or your f***ing head will be blown off". A few days later they went to London with the clothes they stood in and all the money they could gather, which was next to nothing. She is still in England. Bless her. Her loyal eventual husband died about 15 years ago.

Last edited by John-UK; 01-25-2019 at 11:24 AM..
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Old Today, 03:12 PM
 
1,191 posts, read 592,132 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Religion is not the major part of the conflict over northern Ireland.

What is at the root of it was the English occupation and colonization of Ireland. The British did not behave well during their years of occupation. The Potato Famine of the 1840's was partly the result of the failure of the potato crop, but the part that is left out is that there might have been enough food for the Irish if the British colonists hadn't insisted on exporting other crops that could have fed the Irish people. The British fought Irish agitation for self rule for decades. Finally, in 1916, the Easter Uprising took place in Dublin. A group fighting for Irish independence occupied the General Post Office and other buildings in Dublin. The British brutally crushed the uprising and executed about a dozen leaders of the movement. When the Irish saw the hopelessness of defeating the British Army in open warfare, a guerrilla war took place between the Irish and British following World War I. Ultimately, around 1920, the British agreed to Irish self rule. However, two major conditions were imposed on the Irish. First, they were not an independent country. They were the Irish free state which allowed the British a certain measure of control over Ireland. Second, the north was cut off from the rest of Ireland because of its majority Protestant population and Northern Ireland remained part of the United Kingdom. These terms were very controversial and lead to a civil war in Ireland. Leader Michael Collins died in that war.

In any event, around 1969 tensions between the Protestants (English) and the Catholic (Irish) people in Northern Ireland came to a head. The Irish Republican Army launched another guerrilla war against the majority Protestant government in Northern Ireland and hundreds of people died in bombings and gunfights. The conflict has pretty much been resolved since about 2000, but it hasn't gone completely away. Trouble could erupt again.

The major reason for conflict is because of the antipathy that exists between some Irish and the British people that goes back to the years of colonization.

Not a bad assessment of the various situations down the years. I would ask when Nicholas Breakspear became Pope (and even before that) was there the same aggression and wars against the English. I know thousands of Irish came to England to help James II secure his throne. That appears to have a been a religious side to events.


At other times the popes financed armies to go to Ireland.
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Old Today, 03:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
It is. Every Ulster person I have ever known has at some time attempted to gain what religion I am. It is in their nature to do so. I make a point of not telling them. They talk about Catholics and Protestants in some way far too often. I have worked with people for five years or more and never knew what religion they were. Ulster people want to know what side you are on. It is in their psyche.

Ireland was not a country as we know it. It was split into fiefdoms with one heavy fighting the next regularly. The English were the first to unite the country. In the end the Irish had their own assembly and MPs at Westminster.

The words British colonists is wrong. The countries and people were intertwined. The Potato Famine of the 1840's was also in England and other parts of Europe. The Irish are surrounded by fish but fish was never a major part of their diet, relying far too much on the potato. When the blight came they were unprepared to harvest the seas. The British regarded the Irish, collectively, as lazy. Drunkenness was rife in the country, with most only doing enough to survive. Education was frowned upon. Their diet was poor fuelled by alcohol. Signs like, "No dogs, blacks or Irish", were common in the USA. A major problem of Ireland was that the land was owned by a few people. The British started to put that right establishing the Irish Land Commission to break up ownership. The commission was dissolved in 2001 - job done. This was not done in Britain as the land is still owned by a few people. Also to prevent famines, the British government sourced food from other continents, cereals from North America, meat from Argentina, etc, in mainly British owned farms and ranches. The new steam ships were used to ensure Europe was fed and never went hungry.

During a major war, WW1, the Irish started a violent rebellion. Irish regiments were serving in the trenches in France and when returning received tumultuous receptions. After the 1916 at the Dublin Post Office, soldiers two deep had to lined up preventing the crowd from lynching the rebels, as it was seen as unpatriotic and stabbing the country in the back when fighting a major war. When the men, who had killed people, were executed the Irish changed their tune, and didn't like "the English killing our boys". The death penalty was mandatory in the UK then. The Irish mentality has always eluded the rest of the western world.






The British eventually allowed the Irish independence in phases. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc all gained independence not by starting a shooting match. Ireland gained full independence in 1949. Ulster was meant to be a part of it, which was scheduled for independence. The Protestants armed themselves forming militias stating they were going to fight against rule from Dublin, which they regarded as rule by the Catholic church, calling it "Rome rule". Which eventually proved they were not that far off. After independence the Irish fought a Civil war as a power struggle ensued.

The Northern Irish were given a free hand at running the province, which was the wrong thing to do. The majority Protestants suppressed the Catholics who rose in civil rights marches, as the blacks did 10 years earlier in the southern USA. The Protestant police and police reservists, the B Specials, brutally put them down. In one Catholic village a police Land Rover drove down a street of terraced house shooting a machine gun over head height at the houses. The Dublin prime minister sent Southern Irish troops up to Ulster but they wisely stopped at the border, otherwise British troops would have been seizing parts of the south. In 1969 London sent in extra soldiers to maintain peace who were greeted as saviours from the brutal Protestant police. The Northern Irish government protested to London at the cosy relationship the soldiers had with the Catholics. The troops were ordered to stand away from the local population. Then Catholic terrorist groups formed shooting at the soldiers, police and Protestants forming up with groups from the south, with the troubles continuing for decades. The IRA was illegal in the south but not the north. EU membership rendered it all quite pointless as borders were open with free trade. The Good Friday agreement has put a lid on the problems. It is always boiling with every now and then the lid being blown off. Another few decades of violence? History says there will be.

The major reason for conflict is that the two communities in Ulster detest each other for reasons that defy logic. I know one Ulster lady who is a Protestant who was dating a Catholic. He was tied up, blindfolded, taken into a field, beaten with a gun pushed into his mouth and told to "stop seeing her or your f***ing head will be blown off". A few days later they went to London with the clothes they stood in and all the money they could gather, which was next to nothing. She is still in England. Bless her. Her loyal eventual husband died about 15 years ago.

The Catholics in Ulster were as well-off as the Protestants were and in many cases better off. But even if they had cause to complain most of what they complained about was rectified in 1970.


''The majority Protestants suppressed the Catholics '' in what way?



The part about the Protestant lady dating a Catholic also happened the opposite way.
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