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Old 03-10-2019, 04:18 PM
 
Location: North America
4,430 posts, read 2,665,626 times
Reputation: 19314

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironpony View Post
Well I talked to my other friends about it and they definitely have a strong stance against the US's decision to nuke Japan. Maybe it's a Canadian thing since all my friends are Canadian but the conversation was brought up again in a larger group and they concurred that the nuking of Japan was morally wrong, and when I tried to point out some of the points made on here, they said that no matter how bad a war gets, you don't use nuclear weapons under any circumstances, period. One of them said even if not nuking means the war will get even worse, you just be men and deal with it he said.

So I guess that is some people's opinions on it...
Are your Canadian friends aware of the fact that the Manhattan Project, while primarily an American project, was also supported by the United Kingdom... and Canada? Indeed, the Manhattan project included several operational locations in Canada. Canadian government officials who were privy to the secret project - and a number of them were - knew very specifically that its purpose was to produce a weapon to be used during the war then raging. Are they aware that Canadian uranium ore was critical to producing the cores of early atomic weapons? MP C.D. Howe, a major power-broker involving Canada's role in the Second World War, prepared the following statement for release after the bombing of Hiroshima: "It is a distinct pleasure for me to announce that Canadian scientists have played an intimate part, and have been associated in an effective way with this great scientific development." Are they aware that U.S. strategic nuclear weapons - ie, those for use against Soviet cities - were stationed on Canadian bases at times during the Cold War? Are they aware that the Canadair CF-104 Starfighter was designed to carry nuclear gravity bombs, or that nuclear weapons were stationed on Canadian bases in West Germany (albeit always under custody of U.S. military personnel)?

Canada was not some bystander when it came to nuclear weapons. Canada played its part in the creation of the American nuclear inventory, supported the use of those weapons against Japan, and later facilitated the potential delivery of nuclear weapons against Soviet bloc targets.

It is also worth noting that the so-called American decision to use atomic weapons against Japan was, in fact, a joint American-British decision. The Quebec Agreement was reached in Quebec City in 1943, between FDR and Churchill, wherein it was agreed - among other things - that atomic weapons would not be used without the consent of both parties (ie, the U.S. and the UK).
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Old 03-10-2019, 05:16 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
4,788 posts, read 2,768,685 times
Reputation: 4910
Default Some observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumann Koch View Post
…

In an interview of Adolf Hitler by George Sylvester Viereck in 1923, and published in Liberty magazine in July 1932 he said:

"We must retain our colonies and we must expand eastward. There was a time when we could have shared world dominion with England. Now we can stretch our cramped limbs only toward the east."

Aligned with Nazi Aryan myths, Hitler also romanticized Native Americans. He even wanted Goebbels’s to confer honorary Aryan status on Native American tribes.

Let's also remember that Hitler incorporated his eugenic ideas in his book Mein Kampf, which he had based on eugenic legislation for the sterilization of "defectives" that had been pioneered in the United States!

I always found it amazing that Hitler and his henchmen did not fit the Aryan 'Look' as none of them were tall, blond and blue-eyed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by southwest88
The rise of a German ... superstate would not have been acceptable (to the UK).
end quote

Well they really must be sh**ting in their pants these days!

Hence my statement: "assuming that Japan had not invaded China or Korea". This was in order to respond to OP's question re Pearl Harbor. Because if Japan had been able to take the Northern Advance into USSR by bypassing China and Korea and while the USSR was battling my hypothetical Allies(UK, USA, France AND Germany) on her eastern front and the US was focused in Europe, Japan would not have attacked Pearl. Again - a big what if.
By the time WWII becomes a shooting war in Sept. 1939, I doubt that anyone was going to credit Hitler's word on anything. Hitler's brilliance was in playing the political game, pushing as much as he could, denying territorial ambitions when it suited him. But he always came around again - until he triggered WWII. As a military strategist & conservator of the German military (which he'd built up through the 1930s), he was a disaster.

eugenic ideas … eugenic legislation for the sterilization of "defectives" … United States - Yes, this is old news. See War against the weak : eugenics and America's campaign to create a master race / Edwin Black, c2003, Four Walls Eight Windows, 363.97 Blac.
Subjects
• Eugenics -- United States -- History.
• Sterilization (Birth control) -- United States.
• Human reproduction -- Government policy -- United States.
• United States -- Social policy.
• United States -- Moral conditions.
Length
• xxviii, 550 pages, [14] pages of plates :

Of course, I'm not sure that current US HS history books cover this topic. It's a painful issue, all the more reason to cover it - but that's my point of view.

By German ... superstate, I meant either Nazi Germany @ the invasion of the USSR, or the swollen Germany you suggest if Germany had waged war solely against the USSR, & conquered them. The actual German state today - Well, UK is probably not happy that Germany has reunited & is well on its way to becoming the strongest economic & military continental European state again. But the current Germany doesn't include Ukraine & whatever other pieces of the former USSR (& of eastern Europe) that Hitler would have wanted to incorporate into Germany.

Did IJ have a good medium or heavy tank? As I recall, the USSR trounced IJ forces the one time (in the far east USSR) they had a pitched battle, mostly because IJ only fielded light tanks - that's what I recall, anyway. The Soviets, in contrast, lined up artillery & tanks practically wheel to wheel - & fired off all their ammo @ once, if need be.
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Old 03-10-2019, 05:53 PM
 
5,110 posts, read 3,037,710 times
Reputation: 1489
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2x3x29x41 View Post
Are your Canadian friends aware of the fact that the Manhattan Project, while primarily an American project, was also supported by the United Kingdom... and Canada? Indeed, the Manhattan project included several operational locations in Canada. Canadian government officials who were privy to the secret project - and a number of them were - knew very specifically that its purpose was to produce a weapon to be used during the war then raging. Are they aware that Canadian uranium ore was critical to producing the cores of early atomic weapons? MP C.D. Howe, a major power-broker involving Canada's role in the Second World War, prepared the following statement for release after the bombing of Hiroshima: "It is a distinct pleasure for me to announce that Canadian scientists have played an intimate part, and have been associated in an effective way with this great scientific development." Are they aware that U.S. strategic nuclear weapons - ie, those for use against Soviet cities - were stationed on Canadian bases at times during the Cold War? Are they aware that the Canadair CF-104 Starfighter was designed to carry nuclear gravity bombs, or that nuclear weapons were stationed on Canadian bases in West Germany (albeit always under custody of U.S. military personnel)?

Canada was not some bystander when it came to nuclear weapons. Canada played its part in the creation of the American nuclear inventory, supported the use of those weapons against Japan, and later facilitated the potential delivery of nuclear weapons against Soviet bloc targets.

It is also worth noting that the so-called American decision to use atomic weapons against Japan was, in fact, a joint American-British decision. The Quebec Agreement was reached in Quebec City in 1943, between FDR and Churchill, wherein it was agreed - among other things - that atomic weapons would not be used without the consent of both parties (ie, the U.S. and the UK).
I didn't mention Canada specifically but I said that other countries were in support of it too and it wasn't just the US, but my friends reacted and said that those countries must of have been out of their minds to support a project like that back then.
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Old 03-10-2019, 06:01 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
4,788 posts, read 2,768,685 times
Reputation: 4910
Default It was essentially the end of the British Empire

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironpony View Post
I didn't mention Canada specifically but I said that other countries were in support of it too and it wasn't just the US, but my friends reacted and said that those countries must of have been out of their minds to support a project like that back then.
Canada's (& the rest of the Dominion's) experience with the British Empire in WWI was disturbing. The British launched direct frontal attacks on German positions on the Western Front, & lost a lot of troops for very little gain. That applied to British & Canadian troops - & helped launch Canada on a more independent (from UK) foreign policy.
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Old 03-10-2019, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Elysium
12,277 posts, read 7,985,400 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southwest88 View Post
For Japan, US nuclear weapons meant that a single bomber could destroy the heart of a city. This was a real problem, because IJ had lost most of its pilots & groundcrew in the war, & was reserving what was left for suicide attacks - as well as suicide boat attacks. I don't recall that IJ had fighter aircraft capable of climbing to the B-29's cruising altitude, & I don't think they ever had flak guns that could reach that high either.
It was irrelevant as the US 20th AAF had already switched to relatively low level night time incendiary attacks. Like Bomber command in Europe rather than the high level precision bombing attempted by the 8th and 15th USAAFs in Europe
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Old 03-10-2019, 06:57 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
4,788 posts, read 2,768,685 times
Reputation: 4910
Default Different topic

Quote:
Originally Posted by southwest88
For Japan, US nuclear weapons meant that a single bomber could destroy the heart of a city. This was a real problem, because IJ had lost most of its pilots & groundcrew in the war, & was reserving what was left for suicide attacks - as well as suicide boat attacks. I don't recall that IJ had fighter aircraft capable of climbing to the B-29's cruising altitude, & I don't think they ever had flak guns that could reach that high either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taiko View Post
It was irrelevant as the US 20th AAF had already switched to relatively low level night time incendiary attacks. Like Bomber command in Europe rather than the high level precision bombing attempted by the 8th and 15th USAAFs in Europe
Yes, but I was talking about nuclear weapons in WWII. Yes, LeMay got results. He stripped the B-29s of defensive armament, deleted the Norden (not needed), stripped out all unnecessary weight & loaded more bombs (or fuel) instead, & ran incendiary attacks en masse & @ low level @ night - because IJ lacked aircraft detection radar, there were little to no IJ night fighters, & flak was light (as I recall - I haven't looked @ those sources for a while). He also experimented with bomb loadout, & selected the mix of mostly incendiary & some high explosive.

The nuclear B-29 missions were flown @ high altitude. The plane would drop the bomb, & go into a steep dive away from the bomb - to build up speed & put as much distance as possible between the burst & the plane.
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Old 03-10-2019, 07:05 PM
 
22,923 posts, read 15,361,261 times
Reputation: 16962
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironpony View Post
I didn't mention Canada specifically but I said that other countries were in support of it too and it wasn't just the US, but my friends reacted and said that those countries must of have been out of their minds to support a project like that back then.
Oh boy! You've got to look at this from the perspective of the day and not use a term like "out of their minds" to describe those making decisions during actual wartime with it's terrible daily casualties.

When your mother receives a telegram delivered to your door worded thusly" We regret to inform you that your husband, Troop Sgt. ****** service number ****** was wounded in action the (date). At this time we do not have details available as to the extent of his wounds. Further information will be forwarded to you as soon as it becomes available." You may then get an idea of the daily stress and trauma of the times.

Twenty one days later came another telegram informing her his wounds were to his right hand and arm caused by shrapnel while he was leading his three tanks into an action in a town in the Liri Valley, Italy and he was already back in action.

Another similar telegram episode on behalf of my father was forthcoming during the liberation of Holland and thankfully, again, his wounds were not life threatening and he was back in action after a two week convalescence.

Now I ask you and your young friends to consider those types of missives arriving at houses all over Canada and other allied countries with the resultant effect that would have upon elected leaders also receiving similar messages in their households, being given a decision to make regarding the use of a weapon that could bring to an end untold suffering all over the various countries involved.

You should also be aware that RAF forces flying the hump into enemy held Indo China had a huge number of RCAF, Aussie and Kiwi members ceded to them. My FIL flew with 156 and 357 Sqdrn., for only two that I can remember, and his billet was right beside those of General Chenaults Flying Tigers. He flew a combined total of 67 missions as a W/AG into Europe and the Far East before finally coming home. His Liberator twice bombed the Bridge on the River Kwai. They flew single plane night missions well behind enemy lines dropping Sikh agents to disrupt the Japanese.

He and my father used to get into the routine "pigeon, kipper eating, glamor boys" versus "ground pounding, rock throwers" stuff all in fun, but one thing they both agreed upon was lauding Truman's immense bravery in deciding to drop those things and saving countless allied lives.

The youth of today would do well to remember; the life they're presently living, with all of it's things they take for granted, might have turned out substantially different had one iota of the past been done differently.
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Old 03-10-2019, 08:37 PM
 
2,149 posts, read 1,505,325 times
Reputation: 2487
Default A interesting twist

Read 1942 by Robert Conroy a alternative history novel about a post Pearl Harbor Japanese occupied Hawaii....
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Old 03-10-2019, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Elysium
12,277 posts, read 7,985,400 times
Reputation: 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman57 View Post
Read 1942 by Robert Conroy a alternative history novel about a post Pearl Harbor Japanese occupied Hawaii....
Its got to be better than Harry Turtledove's alt history of Japan capturing Hawaii. He basically replayed the actual campaigns in Hawaii instead of the Philippines, Midway and the Central Pacific islands.
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Old 03-11-2019, 12:46 AM
Status: "A solution in search of a problem" (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: New York Area
34,432 posts, read 16,527,546 times
Reputation: 29605
Quote:
Originally Posted by southwest88 View Post
As I recall, Canada's government was unhappy with the British high command in WWI. UK (the British Empire, of which Canada was a part) committed men (UK & allied) to massive ground attacks on German fortified positions, which didn't yield much ground, & caused enormous casualties among the attacking forces - including Canadian. These sacrifices caused domestic tension in Canada, & by the end of the war, Canada was taking a more independent line from UK, & in 1926, UK declared the Dominions to be independent states.
The Canadians fought heroically and won at Vimy Ridge. They had a right to make demands. And 1931 was when the UK declared the dominions a bit more independent. There were more steps, such as a unique Canadian citizenship being coined in 1944, and when Elizabeth became Queen, she was separately "Queen of Canada" and "Queen of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland." The patriation of the Constitution in 1982 cut more, but not all, ties.
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