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Old 03-15-2019, 11:36 AM
 
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The Japanese decision to surrender was brought about by a combination of the atomic bombings (August 6th, 9th) and the Soviet invasion of Manchuria (August 8th).

Some people - Americans, mostly - have an ideological problem with the notion that the USSR contributed to the Japanese surrender. They thus deny that Soviet action had any impact on Tokyo's policy vis-a-vis the war with the Allies. Other people - mostly non-Americans - have a nationalistic problem admitting the primacy of the American role in Japan's defeat, and so are motivated to deny the impact the atomic bombings had influencing Japan's surrender. All of these people are not so interested in discussing history as they are in grinding their personal axes of one sort or another.

We know the impacts of these decisions from numerous documents related to the civilian leadership of Japan at the time, as well as the postwar testimony of those individuals. There is some quibbling among historians over which event was more or less influential, but no serious historians discount the significant impact of either.
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Howard County, Maryland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
You think he made that speech up by himself? Please.
I have no idea if Emperor Hirohito made up his own surrender speech or if he had a speechwriter do it for him. But the key consideration is, were the words that he spoke the ones that he himself wanted to say? If he delivered his message with some wordsmithing help, I see nothing wrong with that. But if he was forced to say something other than what he wanted to say, that's an entirely different matter.

I am not aware of any evidence to suggest that the emperor delivered any message other than the one that he wanted to deliver. If you have factual evidence to the contrary, I would be very interested in hearing it.
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:54 PM
 
Location: Howard County, Maryland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2x3x29x41 View Post
The Japanese decision to surrender was brought about by a combination of the atomic bombings (August 6th, 9th) and the Soviet invasion of Manchuria (August 8th).

Some people - Americans, mostly - have an ideological problem with the notion that the USSR contributed to the Japanese surrender. They thus deny that Soviet action had any impact on Tokyo's policy vis-a-vis the war with the Allies. Other people - mostly non-Americans - have a nationalistic problem admitting the primacy of the American role in Japan's defeat, and so are motivated to deny the impact the atomic bombings had influencing Japan's surrender. All of these people are not so interested in discussing history as they are in grinding their personal axes of one sort or another.

We know the impacts of these decisions from numerous documents related to the civilian leadership of Japan at the time, as well as the postwar testimony of those individuals. There is some quibbling among historians over which event was more or less influential, but no serious historians discount the significant impact of either.
I think that both of them put together pushed Japan over the edge. If the Soviet Union hadn't entered the war against Japan, though, the outcome still would have been the same. Maybe it would have taken Japan's leadership a little longer to give up; maybe a third atomic bomb would have been necessary. But there is simply no way that Japan could have remained standing against a nuclear-armed United States much longer.

The flip side is, what if we didn't use the atomic bombs but Russia entered the war? Again, I think the outcome would have been the same, even if it took a little longer. Japan was beaten. It wasn't a question of it, but when, they simply wouldn't be able to keep on fighting.

My conclusion from this is that Russia's entry into the war wasn't decisive. America would have won anyway. But their entry almost certainly helped shorten the war, and there are surely many people who owe their lives to this.

The Soviet Union made a decisive contribution to Allied victory in World War II -- just not in the Pacific Theater.
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Old 03-15-2019, 03:36 PM
 
Location: Caverns measureless to man...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
You think he made that speech up by himself? Please.
I can't imagine a better answer to that post than this one...



Quote:
Originally Posted by bus man View Post
I have no idea if Emperor Hirohito made up his own surrender speech or if he had a speechwriter do it for him. But the key consideration is, were the words that he spoke the ones that he himself wanted to say? If he delivered his message with some wordsmithing help, I see nothing wrong with that. But if he was forced to say something other than what he wanted to say, that's an entirely different matter.

I am not aware of any evidence to suggest that the emperor delivered any message other than the one that he wanted to deliver. If you have factual evidence to the contrary, I would be very interested in hearing it.
So, that's two of us.
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Old 03-18-2019, 04:30 AM
 
Location: London
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Originally Posted by dozerbear View Post
My response was to the post that said Germany and Japan would invade both US coasts, and that we would be fighting a two front war right at home.
The USA was like two countries, east and west. The more sparsely populated west concentrated on Japan in manufacturing and providing men, while the east, Germany.
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Old 03-19-2019, 06:45 AM
 
Location: London
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Originally Posted by SWFL_Native View Post
The real issue is with Hitler taking his focus off Britain and turning to Russia. If he puts 100% into Britain they win and Stalin would have been kept at bay.
It was all about the British defending the USA and teaching the USA how to wage war. After the Pearl Harbor attack the Royal Navy moved over to protect the eastern seaboard of the USA. In 1942 the Japanese and Germans were at the height of their expansion, its was clear to an observer of the strategy and economics of the war that Axis defeat was inevitable. The British and Soviets had determined the course of the war with the Battle of Britain in 1940 and the Battle of Moscow in Dec 1941. The USAAF in the UK was receiving something like 70% of its supplies locally until 1943 - it is in the USAAF history.

The war was in effect won in 1938 when the British switched to a full war economy, five years ahead of Germany who were not fully up to steam. In 1941 the British were building more aircraft than Germany, Japan and Italy combined, 5,000 more than the USSR and 5,000 less than the USA. In 1945 the aircraft industry was the largest industry in the UK.

In 1942 the USA was a liability offering little, suffering great losses. Shipping losses to U-boats had fallen steadily throughout 1941 as anti-U-Boat technology began to take effect, only to reach spectacular levels with the entry of the USA into the war. All major historical authorities – Morrison, Roskill, Churchill, Bauer and even General Marshall are agreed this was entirely due the incompetence of the US Navy and the stupidity of Admiral King in allowing 600 vessels to be sunk on the US east coast. The correspondence between King and Marshall is found in Bauer's history, ending with an Army General correctly advising a US Admiral on maritime tactics.

The story of the USA "coming to the rescue" of the UK is a propaganda story, perpetuated by the USA, with the British complicit in not vehemently denouncing it. The reality was very different, starting with the Arcadia Conference held in Washington, from December 22, 1941 to January 14, 1942, where the British subtly forced the USA to model its war economy and planning on the British system.

The reality is the USA knew nothing about managing a modern war and learned most from the British - and at times reluctantly or hamfistedly. The history of the Woman's Army Auxiliary Corps makes interesting reading, because it has the US Army learning the hard way, ignoring much of what they had already been told.

In 1939 the Poles brought the secrets of their decoding of Enigma to the British and the French, the British fully cracked it and further improvements as well. It is fascinating that the French knew throughout WW2 that the British were probably decoding German codes – but never let on to the Germans even after the British destroyed a part of their fleet in Algeria. Had things been different and the British been really up against it, the Tizard mission would have gone to the USSR, not the USA, then the British would have had a workable design for a nuclear bomb from the Tube Alloys project. Britain and the USSR would have won for sure, with the USA being be a minor player on the world stage.

Last edited by John-UK; 03-19-2019 at 07:10 AM..
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Old 03-19-2019, 07:37 AM
Status: "content provider" (set 18 days ago)
 
Location: New Mexico
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Default Interesting information

Quote:
Originally Posted by John-UK View Post


In 1939 the Poles brought the secrets of their decoding of Enigma to the British and the French, the British fully cracked it and further improvements as well. It is fascinating that the French knew throughout WW2 that the British were probably decoding German codes but never let on to the Germans even after the British destroyed a part of their fleet in Algeria. Had things been different and the British been really up against it, the Tizard mission would have gone to the USSR, not the USA, then the British would have had a workable design for a nuclear bomb from the Tube Alloys project. Britain and the USSR would have won for sure, with the USA being be a minor player on the world stage.
How desperate would UK have had to have been, in order to confide military/economic secrets to Stalin & the USSR? Was the USSR in any better shape to exploit & mass produce UK military breakthroughs? Germany invaded the Soviets June 1941 - even though they managed to relocate heavy industry on the fly, would the USSR have been able to exploit & mass produce innovative military hardware amid the disruptions of full-scale military invasion?

Did Tizard act beyond the scope of his mission in the US? I see that when he returned to UK in Oc.t 1940 from consultations with US technical & administrative organizations, his job had evaporated out from under him.
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Old 03-19-2019, 10:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by ironpony View Post
I didn't mention Canada specifically but I said that other countries were in support of it too and it wasn't just the US, but my friends reacted and said that those countries must of have been out of their minds to support a project like that back then.
It sounds less like your friends were concerned with the citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and were more interested in grinding an axe with actions they wrongly thought they could pin solely on Washington. I take it that while they're outraged with the incineration of civilians by atomic weapons, they're cool with incineration of civilians by means of conventional weapons? As in Operation Gomorrah in 1943, where 40,000+ died in Hamburg and in which the Royal Canadian Air Force joined? How about the firestorms that gutted Dresden in 1945? Canada didn't participate, but more British bombers than American bombers did. I suspect the nationalities of the pilots over these particular cities in Japan and Germany are more pertinent to your friends than the fate of the people upon whom the bombs were falling.

Do not get me wrong. I am not one of those people for whom questioning the use of atomic weapons against Japan is politically incorrect. I have no need to shut down such questions out of some need to find American such actions moral. I think it is a complex issue that transcends simple answers of 'moral' or 'immoral'. And I find amusing the common utilitarian answer ("Well, it saved more lives than it killed, therefore I approve!") by people who probably are not utilitarian except when they find utilitarianism a conveniently simple answer to a very complex question they'd rather not address.

In a nutshell, this is yet another World War II topic that many people cannot separate from their feelings, pro or con, about the uniform worn by the soldiers/sailors/airmen in question.
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Old 03-19-2019, 07:22 PM
 
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just saw a documentary about Russia and japan...Russia and japan actually fought each other in 1939 which lasted 4 months..they then signed a treaty that said neither one would attack the other without one years notice...japan contends Russia violated this treaty and took the Kuril islands to which they STILL argue over
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuril_Islands
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Old Yesterday, 02:46 AM
 
Location: London
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Originally Posted by southwest88 View Post
How desperate would UK have had to have been, in order to confide military/economic secrets to Stalin & the USSR? Was the USSR in any better shape to exploit & mass produce UK military breakthroughs?
The Soviets were into rocketry before and during WW2. They produced far better tanks than the western allies. They were better at simple firearms - look at the AK47 just after WW2. The Soviet A-Bomb project was under way during WW2 (the British started theirs in 1939). The Soviets detonated their first A-Bomb in 1949. In short they were no fools, as their space programme showed us all. Any A-Bomb would be led by British scientists.
Quote:
Germany invaded the Soviets June 1941 - even though they managed to relocate heavy industry on the fly, would the USSR have been able to exploit & mass produce innovative military hardware amid the disruptions of full-scale military invasion?
The Soviets did.
Quote:
Did Tizard act beyond the scope of his mission in the US? I see that when he returned to UK in Oc.t 1940 from consultations with US technical & administrative organizations, his job had evaporated out from under him.
Once the USA was given a raft of innovations, many of these they had no idea about or even doing R&D, Tizard's job was done. Innovations kept coming from the UK, such as penicillin, advanced jet engine types (the Germans were way behind in jets). What price was that technology exchange? Whatever the price, it was it was vastly undersold.

Last edited by John-UK; Yesterday at 03:34 AM..
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