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Old 02-17-2019, 01:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant View Post
There's a third possibility. Just as the Nazis were hoping for stasis on their Western front in 1941 (that is, England), so too, Japan would avoid confrontation with British or American interests in the Pacific. Instead, Japan would declare war on the USSR, invading it through China into Siberia. The USSR's divisions that were initially stationed in the Soviet far-east, precisely to counter such a Japanese invasion, were instead thrown into the defense of Moscow, in November 1941. Now suppose that Japan had 2-3 million men, supported by tanks, heavy artillery and air cover, moving across China, into Kazakhstan, wheeling around the Ural "mountains", through Orenburg and Saratov. Pressing on Moscow from the south-east, cutting off the retreat of Soviet industry, this swarm might have linked up with the Nazis from the south, perhaps taking Moscow.
Oh, my. Where to begin?

Manchuria is nearly 4000 miles from Moscow. That's about 5x the distance from the German-Soviet frontier in 1941 to Moscow. And the relatively developed European Plain (roads, bridges, forests felled for agriculture) was far more amenable to moving armies than the tiaga of Siberia. There were no roads connecting Moscow to the Far East at the time - the Trans-Siberian Highway didn't exist and while the Trans-Siberian Railway did, do you imagine army groups operating thousands of miles from home, their supply chain a single rail line through all that hostile territory, trivially easy to sabotage? Blow a bridge over one of those wide Siberian rivers and not so much as a bullet moves for months while it is repaired.

Furthermore, what interest could Japan possibly have in trying to fight on the ground in Europe? States go to wars for reasons. Japan attacked Western powers in SE Asia specifically to secure oil, without which it couldn't possibly have gone to war against the USSR (even were it not folly with no discernible benefit to Japan).

The problem with what you suggest is that it is both utterly impossible and completely pointless. Other than that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant View Post
The scenario isn't too preposterous, as Japan was able to defeat Imperial Russia in the naval war of 1905.
The only reason I wouldn't call your scenario preposterous is because that adjective vastly understates its lack of reality. Japanese troops at the gates of Moscow were about as likely as German troops at the gates of Chicago.
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Old 02-17-2019, 02:02 PM
 
224 posts, read 44,591 times
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Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
The USA and British empire was attacked by Japan on Dec 7 1941; that is an overt declaration. Japan submitted a written declaration of war against the US and British on the 8th. Then the US courteously responded with a similar declaration.
https://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/21/w...war-in-41.html

The Germans declared war on the USA first. The US had no intention of declaring war on Germany.

Romania, Italy, Hungary, and Bulgaria also declared war on the USA. The US spent the next six months attempting to get Romania and Bulgaria to rescind their declarations.
That is absolutely false.

Secretary of War Henry Stimson urged Roosevelt to seek a declaration of war against Germany immediately after the attack on Pearl Harbor. FDR demured, not because he did not think the United States should join the war in Europe but becuase he knew both that the domestic political case for war would be better if Germany declared war first and because he knew that Germany was very likely to do just that. FDR knew this because a MAGIC interception and decryption of a Japanese cable from Berlin to Tokyo in late November had relayed assurances from Germany that in the event of a Japanese-U.S. war, Germany would immediately join on Japan's side. Stimson recalled that the strategy of waiting for Germany to move first was favored by the Joint Chiefs as well. Interior Secretary Harold Ickes confirmed all of this.

Congress largely agreed. On December 8, Senator Abe Murdock (D-Utah) declared "I am now willing and ready to vote for a declaration of war on the whole Axis - Japan, Germany and Italy." On December 11, Representative Oren Harris (D-Arkansas) stated [i]"n our declaration of war against Japan last Monday, many of us felt then, as we do now, that Germany and Italy should have been included, because the attack of the Japanese was in actuality an attack by all of the Axis powers."

Sacramento Union, December 10, 1941:
"President Roosevelt let the nation know last night, in not quite so many words, that the U.S. is as much at war with Germany and Italy as with Japan - and thus took a lot of the punch out of the big diplomatic question of whether we or the Axis partners would be the first to formalize our state of war."

Denver Post, December 1, 1941:
"[T]echnically, this country is engaged in a war with Japan only. Actually, we are at war with Germany and Italy and the whole Axis gang just as certainly as if Congress had included them in the declaration of war voted Monday."

Cincinnati Enquirer, December 12, 1941:
"It was clear to most Americans months ago that we were engaged in an undeclared war with Germany, on a limited basis. It was clear to virtually all Americans last Sunday that the treacherous Japanese attack involved us in all-out war with the entire Rome-Berlin-Tokyo Axis."

With the attack on Pearl Harbor, the United States was going to war. And the American public knew it. On December 10, 1941 - the day before Germany's declaration of war - Gallup released a poll conducted after Pearl Harbor showing that 90% of the American public favored an immediate declaration of war on Germany.

It is clear, John, that your interest in World War II is limited to magnifying the accomplishments of the United Kingdom and denigrating the contributions of other powers, particularly those of the United States. While there are certainly many Americans who similarly practice the same nationalistic nonsense, that is no excuse for your distortions. Frankly, your actions suggest that you are embarrassed by the actual history of your country. Why else would you be so compelled to make the demonstrably false claim that you've made here? It's sad. While all participating powers made errors of one sort or another, and at times behaved less than admirably, the UK overall conducted itself laudably. You clearly think its actions - and those of the other powers - need to be subjected to your revisionism in order for the UK to be properly cast in a decent light. This actually says nothing about your country. But it says quite a lot about you.
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Old 02-17-2019, 06:07 PM
 
Location: London
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2x3x29x41 View Post
even if they weren't in the war actively, the United States (and Canada) weren't about to let the UK's supply lifeline be severed.
Canada yes, as it was in the British empire. The United States? Where was the USA in 1940? They never saw US troops in England at that time, they saw Canadian. The USA only entered the war because Germany declared war on them. They had no intention of 100% being involved. No facts are there to prove they were going to be involved committing men. Although men the British did not need having a manpower pool of 40 million in the empire. USA supplies to the British were 10%, hardly earth shattering. Churchill said, "give us the tools and we will do the job". Churchill needed to supply the empire armies. BTW, 2.6 million British troops marched into Burma against the Japanese. The USA had nowhere near that number of ground troops in the Far East.

Last edited by John-UK; 02-17-2019 at 06:29 PM..
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Old 02-17-2019, 06:13 PM
 
Location: London
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2x3x29x41 View Post
That is absolutely false.
Germany declared war on the United States, first. That is factual. BTW, I like the truth, not Hollywood or History Channel history. The USA did not enter into the European war out of the goodness of its hearts. If Britain was waiting for the USA to enter, they would still be waiting.
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Old 02-18-2019, 07:24 AM
 
Location: State Fire and Ice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
Pure opinion not based on facts. Hitler did not have the capability to see off Britain. If he did he would have. The British surrounded the Axis and starved them of vital resources. Once the USSR was in the fight, access to resources for Germany was super critical. See above.

Britain and France planned no attack on the USSR before the attack by Germany in June 1941. They tried to get arms to the Finns in the 1939/40 winter war, but were too late. France did murmur to attack the USSR from the Middle East with bombers during the winter war, that was about it.

The air battle for England? That is proof of Hitler’s intention to destroy Britain - he failed. The reality is, few if any German craft would have made the beaches. The largest navy in the world was in front of them.

If nothing, your diatribe was entertaining.
Britain and France did not plan an attack on the USSR? You have scant knowledge of history.

And now for the facts.
After the signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in the summer of 1939, France, England began to plan a war with the Soviet Union. The Allies wanted to deliver a crushing blow to the USSR by bombing the oil fields in the Caucasus (thus, a large Volga oil artery would be blocked), after which they would enter 500 thousand of their troops.
Initially, three scenarios were considered:


1. The conduct of hostilities from the Black Sea. This strategy was called the "Southern Plan" attack on the USSR. According to him, the attack was planned from the Black Sea, the Balkan countries and Turkey. Romania, Greece, Yugoslavia and Turkey were supposed to give reinforcements in the amount of 100 divisions, and Norway and Sweden additionally - another 10 divisions.

2. The invasion of the Caucasus. On January 19, 1940, the French and English governments created a document on the “Direct Invasion of the Caucasus”. Then France and England planned to draw Turkey, Yugoslavia and Romania into this war. The main calculation was made on Lebanon and Syria, there should have been a French corps in the amount of 150 - thousand people (under the command of Maxim Weygun), which were to completely break the spirit of Soviet soldiers. The French General Staff decided to carry out this operation from the north - west of Iran.

3. The uprising of the Muslim population of the Caucasus. The instigator of such actions was Paris. It was the statements of the French that were more aggressive, they welcomed open conflict with the USSR to assist Finland. The performers of all the actions according to the plan of the French were to be the British. The main emphasis was placed on the fleet and aircraft, but the French had no first or second.
The British, although they had all this, wanted to play a cautious and cunning game. They absolutely did not need to expose their positions in Iraq, Iran, India, and especially Egypt. Thus, France wanted war with the USSR, but did not have the necessary means for this, and England, although it had opportunities to wage this war, but hey it was unprofitable.


In the spring of 1940, two final plans for the forthcoming hostilities in the Caucasus were developed: the English MA-6 and the French RIP. The allies believed that 90-100 aircraft were enough to carry out an air strike. Of these, 5 American groups - "Glenn Martin", 4 groups of British bomber "Blanheym." According to this plan, Baku should have been destroyed within 15 days, and Grozny within 12 days.
In March 1940, a meeting of the British and French command was held in Aleppo, during which the preparatory moments of the upcoming operation were discussed. The construction of 20 airfields was planned, by the end of May - the beginning of June, the preparation was to be completed.

Preparations for the war were carried out actively until May 1940, until Hitler launched an offensive. Despite the fact that France knew about the offensive of Hitler (the plan of an attack on France became known - "Gelb"), but was not at all ready for this, since she was actively preparing an offensive against the USSR.
The USSR, thanks to its intelligence service, took appropriate countermeasures to prevent an invasion. In fact, the military company of Hitler in 1940, rescued the USSR from the war with France, England, Iran and Turkey. Although, to be precise, all these countries were saved from destruction.
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Old 02-18-2019, 07:35 AM
 
Location: State Fire and Ice
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And now on the topic. Why Japan and the United States could not have had another scenario.
Lieutenant-General Vitaly Pavlov, who worked in the state security bodies in October 1940, was summoned to the office of the People's Commissar of Internal Affairs Lavrenti Beria. The main details of the operation aimed at "pushing" the United States and Japan became known here.In addition to Pavlov and Beria, at least two more people were devoted to the secret of the upcoming event. One of them was intelligence officer Iskhak Akhmerov, who had worked in the USA for more than 10 years, the other was the head of foreign intelligence Pavel Fitin. It is noteworthy that Beria demanded the complete destruction of all the papers that were related to the operation.

In Moscow, they decided to use Akhmerov’s connections at the US Treasury Department. The Soviet agent had access to Harry Dexter White, the son of a Jewish emigrant from the Russian Empire. This statesman, known in Washington as an ardent anti-fascist, successfully influenced Finance Minister Henry Morgenthau, and through him, other high-ranking members of the government, even President Roosevelt. Soviet intelligence assigned the code names "Cashier" and "Lawyer" to White

Pavlov was to meet with White and instill in him the idea that Japanese expansion in the Asia-Pacific region poses a danger to the United States.
It is noteworthy that the name "Snow" operation received by association with the name of White ("white").

Arriving in the US capital in the spring of 1941 under the guise of a Soviet diplomatic courier, Beria’s envoy arranged a meeting with White at a restaurant. Pavlov introduced himself as a friend of the Chinese scientist Bill by this name White first knew Akhmerov. According to one version, Pavlov did not hide the fact that he was working in the Soviet embassy, ​​on the other - the intelligence officer presented himself as a Russian immigrant living in the Middle Kingdom.

Pavlov told the minister’s address that Bill had gone to China, but he asked me to convey information about what was happening in this country, which had suffered from Japanese aggression. At the same time, he added that he fully agrees with the views of his comrade.

Seeds fell on fertile soil. Harry White admitted that he himself has concerns about the situation in the Far East and even planned to consult with experts about this.

Result - In the autumn of 1941, notes on the foreign policy situation in Asia were on the table of President Franklin Roosevelt. They contained theses, which White simply copied from papers received from Pavlov.

On November 26, Washington presented Tota “Note of Hull” - a package of 10 demands signed by the US Secretary of State. The Americans insisted that Japanese troops leave China and French Vietnam. Another point was the gap with Germany. It is unlikely that the US diplomatic service could have guessed that this list was thought out a year ago in Beria’s office.
Japan’s tough response, which the Russians were counting on, followed immediately. Prime Minister Hideki Tojio took the note as an ultimatum and on 7 December ordered the fleet to attack Pearl Harbor. Subsequently, Tojo, recognized as a war criminal, assured that the Allies provoked the Asian war.
Up until 1945, the Japanese Empire was no longer up to the Soviet Far East. In Moscow, they could not fear a war on two fronts.

As for Harry White, for him the ties with the communist intelligence turned badly. After the war, he was persecuted for it, and in 1948 he committed suicide.

Last edited by GreyKarast; 02-18-2019 at 07:48 AM..
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Old 02-18-2019, 07:50 AM
 
Location: London
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyKarast View Post
After the signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in the summer of 1939, France, England began to plan a war with the Soviet Union.
Interesting. Most here would want some sources to back this up.
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Old 02-18-2019, 09:40 AM
 
2,507 posts, read 1,408,021 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClaraC View Post
I think we wouldn't have joined the war with Churchill against Germany, and in a short period of time, Germany would have won the war.

Churchill must have secretly been SO RELIEVED that Japan attacked the US, because until that happened, little England was having to stave Hitler off pretty much all by themselves.

Finally, FINALLY, Churchill had the assistance of Roosevelt in WWII.

Agreed. Had we not been attacked, all of Europe would have fallen. Then, the USSR would have been next in another 2 years or so.


After that, I imagine Germany and Japan would marshall their strength and attack both the East and West coasts after another period of 2-3 years of building their armies back up. Fighting a two front war at home would be extremely difficult for the US, and it's not hard to imagine that if the Blitzkrieg style of attack was able to destroy a significant portion of our manufacturing facilities in the Northeast right away, we would not be able to recover.


(Just for the record, Churchill's feelings when we entered the war aren't a secret.)
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Old 02-18-2019, 10:00 AM
 
Location: State Fire and Ice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
Interesting. Most here would want some sources to back this up.
why? You are always accustomed in the west to deny everything that concerns Russia and the USSR as a whole. you know my knowledge in history and in other sciences do not depend on the Internet, they are in my head. People in Russia know a lot about these events. But for you I will find some sources in English, if you have any. because in reality you are talking about free speech in the west, and in reality you are under strong control and filtering.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...ned-bomb-19691


You should know that I have found this link especially for you at your request and did not even read it, I found this link in one minute.
Therefore, if you want to study this question yourself. but sad that this is in. don't have it in your head initially.

I feel rather uncomfortable writing in English and I don’t really like it, so I'm sorry if my words look wrong on a grammatical basis.


I would add that the United Kingdom and the United States repeatedly secretly negotiated with Germany during the Second World War. While they signed an allied treaty with the USSR.
As a result of such negotiations, Soviet soldiers suffered heavy losses, because the German divisions, which opposed British and American soldiers, were transferred to Soviet directions under contracts.
I'm not talking about the secret division of trophies, this applies especially to the US. (The United States entered the war against Germany at the very end, when the outcome was already decided and began to divide the prizes), while the Soviet troops fought with the Third Reich. What is the most impudent? They excluded the USSR. In other words, the USSR won the war, and the so-called allies without the USSR were going to divide the prizes.
so study these FACTS if you don’t know them and are interesting.
I would like to add that the pact on non-attack signed by the USSR and Germany is not an allied treaty. Allies do not sign such treaties.
Such an agreement with Germany was previously signed by Poland and not only

Last edited by GreyKarast; 02-18-2019 at 10:55 AM..
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Old 02-18-2019, 10:42 AM
 
Location: State Fire and Ice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katana49 View Post
Agreed. Had we not been attacked, all of Europe would have fallen. Then, the USSR would have been next in another 2 years or so.


After that, I imagine Germany and Japan would marshall their strength and attack both the East and West coasts after another period of 2-3 years of building their armies back up. Fighting a two front war at home would be extremely difficult for the US, and it's not hard to imagine that if the Blitzkrieg style of attack was able to destroy a significant portion of our manufacturing facilities in the Northeast right away, we would not be able to recover.


(Just for the record, Churchill's feelings when we entered the war aren't a secret.)
Funny. But the Soviet people massively transferred and built new plants in the depths of the country. Plants began to produce products directly under the open sky, even in winter in Siberia. In addition, the Soviet people produced more products than all of Germany and Europe, and it was during the war.
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