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Old 04-08-2019, 09:46 AM
 
11,867 posts, read 5,037,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeBeard View Post
Italy is the eight largest manufacturing economy in the world ahead of the UK. Hardly lazy.
It's also the 4th largest GDP in Europe. That doesn't exactly fit in with being lazy either.
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Old 04-08-2019, 09:48 AM
 
Location: North Beach, MD on the Chesapeake
33,838 posts, read 41,929,700 times
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Some actual history:

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/da...-misadventure/

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/da...to-stalingrad/
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Old 04-08-2019, 10:51 AM
 
12,182 posts, read 18,335,735 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seenee View Post
Seems kind of crazy how in WWI Italy was part of the allies and in WWII they were part of the Axis yet regardless, they were awful and couldn't accomplish anything really noteworthy in terms of militarily speaking. Especially considering they were the ones that had the infamous Roman Republic/Empire. So what was it that made them such trash at warfare in the 20th century?
This is just one of those posts that started wrong, so you have 3 pages of almost no answer to your question.

Simple answer -
a.) Italy didn't have modern equipment, they were a paper tiger, they were outmatched - they were fighting WW2 and WW1 like they were fighting colonial wars instead of modern European powers, who indeed did have modern equipment.
b.) Bad leadership and military structure - In WW2, Il Duce managed all aspects of the military adventures, and his main officers were his lackeys, furthermore, the different branches of military, instead of cooperating with each other, competing with each other,
c.) Morale - in WW1 Italy infantry fought well but sustained unimaginable casualties. Like France and Russia, they collapsed. There is only so much infantry can take. In WW2, well, Italy just didn't have it's heart in that war. It was Il Duce's war, not Italy's.

In general - Italian troops got a bad rap. Man to man, they fought well and bravely and suffered through bad equipment and bad leadership.
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Old 04-08-2019, 12:44 PM
 
5,580 posts, read 3,645,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeBeard View Post
Italy is the eight largest manufacturing economy in the world ahead of the UK. Hardly lazy.
Italy ranks 8... UK is the fifth largest economy. The Italian economy has been stagnating.

Italy, Ireland, Greece are the pigs of the EU, the countries the EU would be fine losing.
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Old 04-08-2019, 01:06 PM
 
11,867 posts, read 5,037,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordSquidworth View Post
Italy ranks 8... UK is the fifth largest economy. The Italian economy has been stagnating.

Italy, Ireland, Greece are the pigs of the EU, the countries the EU would be fine losing.
Perhaps that's a good plan. The people living on the Italian Peninsular have done fairly well for themselves for at least a couple of thousand years without the EU, Britain or Germany. After Brexit, losing Italy, Ireland, Greece would probably be the last nail in the coffin of the EU. Any other countries that remain in the EU can proudly rename themselves the Confederate States of Germany.

Last edited by marino760; 04-08-2019 at 01:38 PM..
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Old 04-08-2019, 02:04 PM
 
6,486 posts, read 2,750,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordSquidworth View Post
Italy ranks 8... UK is the fifth largest economy. The Italian economy has been stagnating.

Italy, Ireland, Greece are the pigs of the EU, the countries the EU would be fine losing.

In terms of manufacturing Italy and percentage of worldwide exports Italy beats the UK, Canada, Australia, Russia and nearly every other nation on the globe.
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Old 04-08-2019, 03:22 PM
 
5,580 posts, read 3,645,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marino760 View Post
Perhaps that's a good plan. The people living on the Italian Peninsular have done fairly well for themselves for at least a couple of thousand years without the EU, Britain or Germany. After Brexit, losing Italy, Ireland, Greece would probably be the last nail in the coffin of the EU. Any other countries that remain in the EU can proudly rename themselves the Confederate States of Germany.
Eh. They're doing okay. Not the greatest. Italy as it is has only been around since 1861, so they haven't been doing fairly well for a couple thousand years. I probably wouldn't have wanted to be around during the inquisition era (prior to the modern Italian state).

Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeBeard View Post
In terms of manufacturing Italy and percentage of worldwide exports Italy beats the UK, Canada, Australia, Russia and nearly every other nation on the globe.
You're cherry picking. They're GDP is lower, their average incomes are lower, and they more stagnant. Any of that is more important than strictly manufacturing metric.


*** majority of my family history is Italian. My family has historically been highly involved with the NY Mafia. I have relatives that you can read about. There's a reason they left. There's reason I wouldn't live there. While I have influences from Italian culture, it's my US influences that make me the better person. It's not **** on Italy hour... the country just isn't that glorious and while the natural beauty of Italy is breathtaking and old architecture is amazing... the people of today I find lazy.
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Old 04-08-2019, 03:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeBeard View Post
Italy did not fight particularly porky during WWI. Their performance had more to do with poor leadership and incompetent generals. They had their defeats but toward the end of the war, they were pushing forward.

As far as WWII, Italian leadership knew that Italy was not prepared for war. Il Duce thought the war was over when he intervened. He was an idiot as he did not heed his generals who told him they were headed for disaster.
This begs the question of why they were so unprepared though. Fascists in Italy came to power a decade longer than the Nazis in Germany. What were they doing during that period?
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Old 04-08-2019, 04:09 PM
 
939 posts, read 282,592 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkwensky View Post
This begs the question of why they were so unprepared though. Fascists in Italy came to power a decade longer than the Nazis in Germany. What were they doing during that period?
What Italy did before WWII

The first high-speed train was the Italian ETR 200, which in July 1939 went from Milan to Florence at 165 km/h (103 mph), with a top speed of 203 km/h (126 mph). With this service, the railway was able to compete with the upcoming airplanes.

Mussolini "instituted a program of public works hitherto unrivaled in modern Europe. Bridges, canals and roads were built, hospitals and schools, railway stations and orphanages; swamps were drained and land reclaimed, forests were planted and universities were endowed".

Larger programs began in the 1930s with the Bonifica Integrale land reclamation program (or so-called "Battle for Land"), which was employing over 78,000 people by 1933; the Mezzogiorno policies to modernize southern Italy and attack the Mafia as per capita income in the south was still 40% below that of the north; the electrification of the railways and similar transport programs; hydroelectrical projects; and the chemical industry, automobiles and steel. There was also limited takeover of strategic areas, notably oil with the creation of Agip (Azienda Generale Italiana Petroli—General Italian Oil Company).

--------------------

Italians focus was improving Italy and not preparing for war.

Italy fought with the Allies/United States in WWI.

Italy changed sides and fought with Germany in WWII. Mussolini thought Germany would win and wanted to be on the winning side. He didn't have any great commitment to Hitler or Germany.
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Old 04-08-2019, 04:10 PM
 
20,607 posts, read 13,607,916 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkwensky View Post
This begs the question of why they were so unprepared though. Fascists in Italy came to power a decade longer than the Nazis in Germany. What were they doing during that period?
Not always the best source, but pretty accurate response to your query: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor..._(1922_to_1946)


Fascists may have come to power; but that translated on the ground as Mussolini becoming a dictator. The rest as they say is history. When you have one person (who is basically a megalomaniac eegit) running things no good has ever come out of that situation.


From above link:


"Donald Detwiler notes that, "Italy's entrance into the war showed very early that her military strength was only a hollow shell. Italy's military failures against France, Greece, Yugoslavia and in the African Theatres of war shook Italy's new prestige mightily." Historians have long debated why Italy's military and its Fascist regime were so remarkably ineffective at an activity – war – that was central to their identity. MacGregor Knox says the explanation, "was first and foremost a failure of Italy's military culture and military institutions." Norman Polmar and Thomas B. Allen argue that "the Regia Aeronautica failed to perform effectively in modern conflict. Although the Italian Air Force had been in action in the conquest of Ethiopia and the Spanish Civil War, it was totally unprepared for combat...in June 1940. At the time Italy had about 2,500 military aircraft in service. Only 11,000 more were produced during the next three years, far fewer than any of the other major belligerents." James Sadkovich gives the most charitable interpretation of Italian failures, blaming inferior equipment, overextension, and inter-service rivalries. Its forces had "more than their share of handicaps."
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