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Old 05-04-2019, 10:20 AM
 
Location: London
4,360 posts, read 3,653,404 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
Prior to 1941 or so, no.
It was clear what I wrote. Pay attention. Britain declared war out of principle.
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Old 05-04-2019, 10:25 AM
 
Location: London
4,360 posts, read 3,653,404 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2x3x29x41 View Post
Rubbish.
The UK sat idly by
Even US historian Hanson states this:
  • Britain did not attack anyone.
  • Britain never attacked anyone.
  • Britain was not in fear of attack.
  • Yet Britain declared war.
Britain declared war under principle. Britain could have kept out of the war and Germany was constantly making peace approaches when they did declare war. The US sat idly by until attacked for sure. No US forces were see around 1940.

Last edited by John-UK; 05-04-2019 at 10:59 AM..
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Old 05-04-2019, 10:51 AM
 
Location: London
4,360 posts, read 3,653,404 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frihed89 View Post
So, Operation Market Garden was a big success, was it? Unfortunately, Ike had little confidence that Monty's plan for Market Garden would work, and could have stopped this fiasco, but did not. Shame on them both.
Eisenhower prioritized the northern thrust over other fronts. On 4 Sept, the day Antwerp fell, Eisenhower issued another directive, ordering the forces north-west of the Ardennes — 21st Army Group and two corps of the US First Army — to take Antwerp, reach the Rhine and seize the Ruhr. Eisenhower did not know Antwerp had fallen when he issued the directive. Montgomery wanted a thrust up and over the Rhine prior to Eisenhower's directive, devising Operation Comet to be launched on 2 Sept, being cancelled due to German resistance and poor weather.

Eisenhower's directive of 4 Sept had divisions of the US First Army and Montgomery's view of taking multiple bridges on the Rhine from Arnhem to Wesel. The British Second Army needed some divisions of Hodges' US First Army and the First Allied Airborne Army (which Monty controlled anyhow). Hodges' would protect the right flank. the Canadians would protect the left flank from the German 15th army on the coast. It was to chase a disorganized retreating enemy preventing them from manning the German West Wall, gaining a footing over the Rhine, consolidating and then clearing the Scheldt to open up the port of Antwerp. A sound concept which even the German generals agreed would have worked.

The evidence suggests that certain necessary objectives on the road to Berlin, crossing the Rhine and perhaps even taking the Ruhr, were possible with the existing logistical set-up, provided the right strategy to do so was set in place. Montgomery’s Chief of Staff, Freddie de Guingand, certainly thought so: 'If Eisenhower had not taken the steps he did to link up at an early date with Anvil and had held back Patton, and had he diverted the resources so released to the north, I think it possible we might have obtained a bridgehead over the Rhine before the winter - but not more.'

Perhaps not more then, but that much alone would have been very useful. This view was confirmed after the war in interviews with the senior surviving German commanders, von Rundstedt, Student, Blumentritt and Rommel’s former chief of staff, General Speidel. They were unanimous in declaring that a full-blooded thrust from Belgium in September would have succeeded in crossing the Rhine and might have ended the war in 1944, since they had no means of stopping such a thrust reaching the Ruhr. In the event, largely due to the faulty command set-up by Eisenhower and his lack of grip on his wayward generals, even a bridgehead over the Rhine before the winter was still a dream in 1944.

Bradley was starving Hodges' First Army of supplies, against Eisenhower's orders, giving them to Patton who was running off into unimportant territory - again. This northern thrust over the Rhine obviously would not work with the resources starved First Army, so a lesser operation was devised by Montgomery, Market Garden, eliminating the divisions of US First Army, with only ONE crossing of the Rhine. Market Garden would also eliminate V rocket launching sites, of which London wanted eliminating ASAP giving a 60 mile long salient buffer between German forces and the important port of Antwerp. This would only have one corps above Eindhoven, a disgrace considering the forces in Europe at the time. Eisenhower had no grasp of the situation as it was and no strong strategy to advance.

Montgomery, although not liking Eisenhower's broad front strategy, making that clear continuously since the Normandy breakout, being a professional soldier he always obeyed Eisenhower's orders keeping to the laid down strategy, unlike Bradley who also allowed Patton to disobey his own orders.

Montgomery after fixing the operations objectives with Eisenhower to what forces were available, gave Market Garden planning to others, mainly General Brereton, an American, of the First Allied Airborne Army. General Brereton, who liked the plan, agreed to it with even direct input. Brereton ordered the drops will take place during the day and Brereton oversaw the troop carrier and supply drops schedules. A refusal by Brereton and the operation would never have gone ahead, as he earlier rejected Montgomery's initial plan of a drop into the Scheldt at Walcheren Island.

Montgomery left all the planning to his generals to plan and execute. The prime planners were Brereton (an American, head of the First Allied Airborne Army), and Williams of the USAAF, again an American. They consulted Browning, Urquhart, Gavin, Taylor, Horrocks, etc. Monty gave them a free run at it with their own discretion and did not interfere. Montgomery wanted a crossing further east on the Rhine at Wessel, which meant one less bridge. Brereton overruled Monty. Montgomery had no involvement whatsoever in its execution. Montgomery was an army group commander, in charge of armies. The details were left to 'competent' subordinates.

After Market Garden Montgomery said the operation was under resourced. One one corps above Eindhoven, which was a disgrace considering the forces available. He was quite right. Nevertheless Market Garden only failed by a whisker, the 82nd getting it wrong in the first few hours failing to seize Nijmegen bridge immediately. XXX Corps had to seize the bridge themselves which put the operation 36 hours late. Too late to save the British paras who were over the Rhine. So a bridgehead over the Rhine in 1944 was scuppered by the US 82nd.

An American, Eisenhower approved Market Garden, Americans primarily planned it with Montgomery having no part in its execution.

Last edited by John-UK; 05-04-2019 at 11:03 AM..
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Old 05-04-2019, 10:57 AM
 
Location: London
4,360 posts, read 3,653,404 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frihed89 View Post
So, Operation Market Garden was a big success, was it?
Market Garden was a success:
  • It created a 60 mile buffer between Antwerp and German forces. Antwerp was the only port taken intact. This buffer proved itself in the German Bulge attack right through US lines.
  • It created a staging point to move into Germany at Nijmegen, which happened.
  • It eliminated V rocket launching sites aimed at London.
  • It isolate the German 15th army in Holland.
  • They reached the Rhine.
  • The salient was fleshed out.
  • The Germans never retook one mm of ground taken.

The only long advance in the Fall '44/Winter '45 was the 60 mile advance to Arnhem by the British 21st Army Group. There was little movement on the other fronts which were stretched too thinly in Eisenhower broad-front strategy. The US Third Army moved only 10 miles in three months at Metz.

Last edited by John-UK; 05-04-2019 at 11:11 AM..
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Old 05-04-2019, 10:58 AM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,626 posts, read 3,037,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
It was clear what I wrote. Pay attention. Britain declared war out of principle.
It's amusing to hear from a Brit who is as partisan as most Americans used to be.

I do like to think we've gotten better.
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Old 05-04-2019, 11:04 AM
 
Location: London
4,360 posts, read 3,653,404 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
It's amusing to hear from a Brit who is as partisan as most Americans used to be.

I do like to think we've gotten better.
No. Worse.
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Old 05-04-2019, 05:59 PM
 
1,660 posts, read 934,899 times
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I have to say that this is the only place I have ever heard of anyone calling Operation Market Garden a success.
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Old 05-04-2019, 07:32 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,626 posts, read 3,037,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
No. Worse.
Even a few years ago the "and then the US came over and won the war" mindset was common. I haven't run into it in a long time; that the war greatly preceded US involvement and that somewhere between equal and majority credit goes to the Soviets is now commonly understood.

Enjoy Brexit, by the way. Read V for Vendetta lately?
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Old 05-06-2019, 02:02 AM
 
Location: London
4,360 posts, read 3,653,404 times
Reputation: 1990
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawk55732 View Post
I have to say that this is the only place I have ever heard of anyone calling Operation Market Garden a success.
It was assessed as a 90% success. Go by facts it is easier. Post WW2 US authors, and the US media in general, have attempted to big up the US contribution and hide US incompetence. One way was to tell lies about the British, who from mid 1942 took all in their path. The facts about Montgomery put him as the finest general in WW2. Yet the US constantly sneer the man with no justification, while putting a nobody general like Patton as some super fast armoured warfare man - he could not be with 75mm Sherman tanks.

A few objective US authors looked into Patton's record to see what the fuss is about finding that there was nothing to note. He was a liability. He siphoned off supplies from armies that needed them, while his army never needed the supply as it was entering unimportant territory, he ignored supreme commands orders, peeled off at Falaise failing to cut off the German retreat at the Seine to go on a triumphal parade to Paris with few of the enemy in front of him (zestful armoured warfare the US media proclaimed) moved 10 miles in 3 months at Metz, etc, etc.

Last edited by John-UK; 05-06-2019 at 02:19 AM..
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Old 05-06-2019, 02:42 AM
 
Location: London
4,360 posts, read 3,653,404 times
Reputation: 1990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quietude View Post
Even a few years ago the "and then the US came over and won the war" mindset was common. I haven't run into it in a long time; that the war greatly preceded US involvement and that somewhere between equal and majority credit goes to the Soviets is now commonly understood.

Enjoy Brexit, by the way. Read V for Vendetta lately?
Even the film Saving Private Ryan had a dig at Montgomery. It is unrelenting. American historian David Glantz studied the eastern front,using opened up Soviet archives, who came up will some amazing facts about massive forgotten tank battles. Glantz is one of the leading historians on the Soviet war, if not the leading. Glantz would hold presentations on aspects of the eastern front. He said that many Americans would say he was unpatriotic, for doing what he was doing. Yes, unpatriotic. He never sold many books for sure and knew he would not. He ran into a wall of indoctrination.

If Glantz wanted to make money he would have over-exaggerated the US contribution, putting Patton as number 1 and slagged off Montgomery and the British in general. The money would have rolled in. A couple of British authors do that, Hastings and Beevor. They are now quite wealthy. They command very high fees for giving talks. Real historians look down on them.

An example of the unrelenting Anglophobia, a US author named William Weidner wrote a book titled, Eisenhower & Montgomery At the Falaise Gap. This book is full of so many gross deliberate inaccuracies it becomes laughable. He was jumping onto the US anti Monty/British bandwagon. An American named Koba ripped this guy to bits in the comments section, with another guy named Solar Man. The author engaged Koba then was ripped to pieces so much he deleted his own posts. Here are just some of the comments:

https://www.amazon.com/EISENHOWER-MO...ews-filter-bar

Weidner's book is just one of many like that. His book is complete garbage, yet many of the comments laud it.

Last edited by John-UK; 05-06-2019 at 03:48 AM..
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