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Old 05-30-2019, 06:06 PM
 
590 posts, read 117,677 times
Reputation: 352

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Are you being real 2x3x29x41 - do I take it you are from the States? The other book I have was printed in the US of A and you just utterly refuse to believe that the US did not badly behave over treatment of masses of Germans? The numbers of dead are huge whether you like to hear it or not. My stance on Eisenhower is also valid. Indeed I have seen pictures of mass numbers stuck out in no shelter and all those German troops who fled rather than be imprisoned by the Soviets got no better under American supervision. Often thumped by the files of guards, starvation and water shortage were all parts of the scandal that you just want to intellectually bodyswerve by wiping away the camps. Most Americans know nothing about how their military acted in 1945 in mistreatment. Obviously I do hope to find where I put that other book because it so vastly detailed in numbers and hard facts including some concern by more decent US officers who could do little. Once I get that book you should order a copy then damn well come back and offer an apology because you knew nothing about the thing so easy to try dismissing it.

 
Old 05-30-2019, 07:43 PM
 
2,963 posts, read 2,730,595 times
Reputation: 6561
Could it be After The Reich: The Brutal History of the Allied Occupation, by Giles MacDonogh?

This old article may be of interest to this topic on the history forum.

The 'Good War' Myth of World War Two


Not sure how many Germans died post WW2 but Eisenhower and Allied military leaders condemned about 2 million anti soviet Russians and east Europeans to certain death in Operation Keelhaul via forced repatriation.
 
Old 05-30-2019, 08:18 PM
 
9,133 posts, read 9,217,901 times
Reputation: 28596
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjhowie View Post
Are you being real 2x3x29x41 - do I take it you are from the States? The other book I have was printed in the US of A and you just utterly refuse to believe that the US did not badly behave over treatment of masses of Germans? The numbers of dead are huge whether you like to hear it or not. My stance on Eisenhower is also valid. Indeed I have seen pictures of mass numbers stuck out in no shelter and all those German troops who fled rather than be imprisoned by the Soviets got no better under American supervision. Often thumped by the files of guards, starvation and water shortage were all parts of the scandal that you just want to intellectually bodyswerve by wiping away the camps. Most Americans know nothing about how their military acted in 1945 in mistreatment. Obviously I do hope to find where I put that other book because it so vastly detailed in numbers and hard facts including some concern by more decent US officers who could do little. Once I get that book you should order a copy then damn well come back and offer an apology because you knew nothing about the thing so easy to try dismissing it.
I'm amazed anyone would come on here and make the claims you did without citing multiple authorities and during the first post they made. Most of us have enough sense to not come here and say "I read in a book that thousands died.....". After you've cited your sources, than we review them and determine whether its mainstream history and look at any flaws in the methodology your author(s) use.
 
Old 05-30-2019, 09:37 PM
 
608 posts, read 361,959 times
Reputation: 1995
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciceropolo View Post
Could it be After The Reich: The Brutal History of the Allied Occupation, by Giles MacDonogh?

This old article may be of interest to this topic on the history forum.

The 'Good War' Myth of World War Two


Not sure how many Germans died post WW2 but Eisenhower and Allied military leaders condemned about 2 million anti soviet Russians and east Europeans to certain death in Operation Keelhaul via forced repatriation.


You posted a link from the "Institute for Historical Review ".
Have a look at that site's history.

Last edited by Thulsa; 05-30-2019 at 09:41 PM.. Reason: correct error
 
Old 05-30-2019, 10:41 PM
 
6,942 posts, read 3,028,207 times
Reputation: 4420
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjhowie View Post
I have just read a book on events at the surrender of German soldiers in 1945. It is my second one and that publication was the second and brought up to date one. It was bad enough what happened to the defeated army captured by the Soviets and a horrible persecution and death. However I did not know or expect the same by the Western Allies. The Free French were involved but the large death rate in POW camps was by the USA. It ran into hundreds of thousands not only stuck uncovered but not getting the right level of food support and often virtually noting. General Eisenhower was responsible for these terrible horrors and restrictions and the deaths ran into not a few thousand but hundreds of thousands. He even issued orders that if any local people came up to the barbed wire fences they should be warned they would be shot!

The Free French were also involved but the US military was way ahead of them and the more I have dipped into this the more shocking and a disgrace on the West. Even if an occasional US officer was concerned at the state of health and the starving he was well warned and militarily threatened. It wasn't just SS troops but the ordinary German soldiers who suffered. These massive deaths also existed outwith camps when millions were forced to move but the military attitude for u here in the West supposed to be more principled. Even large numbers of the Wermacht who fled to surrender to the Western Allies rather than be treated horribly by the Soviets were to find they were to starve, become seriously ill and die in mass numbers. Yet all thathas been a quiet ignore thing.
If the Germans were smart they would have simply transistioned into asymetric warfare before they actually lost the war instead of full on uniformed combat. Once it was clear they were loosing they should have taken off their uniforms and started fighting gurilla tactics. Used airline transport planes with british markings to drup bombs etc and starting using chemical weapons like there was no tomorrow creating areas where tanks and troops could not advance and putting land mines everywhere. If you know your going to be hung or killed why not go all out. I dont know why they didnt load up the V-2s with nasty chemical weapons to devistate the british population.

They could have made life much more hellish for the allies if they had wanted to.
 
Old 05-31-2019, 03:25 AM
 
Location: San Antonio/Houston
37,709 posts, read 55,375,930 times
Reputation: 89142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thulsa View Post
You posted a link from the "Institute for Historical Review ".
Have a look at that site's history.
This was my first thought, so I also did check the source.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/insti...orical-review/

In short: Institute for Historical Review (IHR) is questionable due to extreme right-wing bias, promotion of Nazi propaganda and earning the label of a hate group.
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Old 05-31-2019, 03:27 AM
 
Location: San Antonio/Houston
37,709 posts, read 55,375,930 times
Reputation: 89142
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
If the Germans were smart they would have simply transistioned into asymetric warfare before they actually lost the war instead of full on uniformed combat. Once it was clear they were loosing they should have taken off their uniforms and started fighting gurilla tactics. Used airline transport planes with british markings to drup bombs etc and starting using chemical weapons like there was no tomorrow creating areas where tanks and troops could not advance and putting land mines everywhere. If you know your going to be hung or killed why not go all out. I dont know why they didnt load up the V-2s with nasty chemical weapons to devistate the british population.

They could have made life much more hellish for the allies if they had wanted to.
Huh?????
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Old 05-31-2019, 05:01 AM
 
582 posts, read 123,693 times
Reputation: 1935
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjhowie View Post
Are you being real 2x3x29x41 - do I take it you are from the States? The other book I have was printed in the US of A and you just utterly refuse to believe that the US did not badly behave over treatment of masses of Germans? The numbers of dead are huge whether you like to hear it or not. My stance on Eisenhower is also valid. Indeed I have seen pictures of mass numbers stuck out in no shelter and all those German troops who fled rather than be imprisoned by the Soviets got no better under American supervision. Often thumped by the files of guards, starvation and water shortage were all parts of the scandal that you just want to intellectually bodyswerve by wiping away the camps. Most Americans know nothing about how their military acted in 1945 in mistreatment. Obviously I do hope to find where I put that other book because it so vastly detailed in numbers and hard facts including some concern by more decent US officers who could do little. Once I get that book you should order a copy then damn well come back and offer an apology because you knew nothing about the thing so easy to try dismissing it.
That I am American is no more material than that you are British. What is material is that there is broad agreement among western historians - American, British, Canadian, German - that Bacque's claims are baseless. Is that really the best you've got? (that was a rhetorical question - not that you answer any posed to you, anyway)

It seems to me that one of the following explains you:
*You uncritically believe whatever that last book you read claims, or
*You uncritically believe what you want to believe

Simply regurgitating the propaganda you've digested again and again isn't convincing. Stop playing the fool, however naturally that roles comes to you.
 
Old 05-31-2019, 05:21 AM
 
582 posts, read 123,693 times
Reputation: 1935
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsflyer View Post
If the Germans were smart they would have simply transistioned into asymetric warfare before they actually lost the war instead of full on uniformed combat. Once it was clear they were loosing they should have taken off their uniforms and started fighting gurilla tactics. Used airline transport planes with british markings to drup bombs etc and starting using chemical weapons like there was no tomorrow creating areas where tanks and troops could not advance and putting land mines everywhere. If you know your going to be hung or killed why not go all out. I dont know why they didnt load up the V-2s with nasty chemical weapons to devistate the british population.

They could have made life much more hellish for the allies if they had wanted to.
1) If the Germans were smart, they'd have surrendered before German was laid waste. The Soviets and French practiced a great deal of asymmetric warfare when the Germans had the initiative. While it made for great stories, and surely had some propaganda value, it didn't accomplish all that much militarily.

2) Using airliners as bombers against foes that had more machines and more pilots? Yeah, that sounds like a great plan...

3) You don't appear to understand how chemical munitions work. Non-persistent agents kill and dissipate rapidly. Persistent agents, obviously, hang around longer, but tanks can seal up and proceed through areas hit by chemical weapons without any problem. Infantry is more of a problem, but only temporarily - chemical agents still degrade fairly quickly. Initiating the use of chemical weapons against a foe that possessed air superiority would have been a strategic blunder of the first order.

4) Land mines! Why didn't the Germans ever think of using landmines?

5) The V-2 was a poor delivery vehicle for chemical munitions. It's hard to get good dispersal from a supersonic rocket that simply detonates on impact. Furthermore, the entire classification of chemical weapons as a WMD is ridiculous. They're no better at killing that high explosives, and often the latter do a better job. They have some utility as a terror weapon, but the British weren't swayed by the Blitz, the Soviets weren't deterred by fearsome terror at the hands of the Wehrmacht and the SS, and the Germans themselves weren't deterred by terror from the air (Hamburg, Dresden, etc.). So your notion of chemical terror as some sort of 'wonder weapon' is unfounded.
 
Old 05-31-2019, 07:44 AM
 
12,165 posts, read 18,321,234 times
Reputation: 18877
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjhowie View Post
One of the books is "Crime and Mercies" by James Bacque published here in Gt Britain but the other thick paperback I must find where I put it for safe keeping because it was printed twice and in the USA. It's details are very impressive.

I noticed one answer here stating that the US treatment of prisoners was good -eh? Hundreds of thousands dying of especially starvation apart from bad treatment. Even the content of any food was below medical levels. How can hundreds of dashed thousands die under a democratic country- unexpected in the evil USSR. General Eisenhower was well known to hate the Germans and he knew fine well how poorly the prisoners were being treated and the hard fact that he issued instructions to shoot civilians going near the fences with food is also something that should not have happened. We in the West were meant to be principled. German prisoners who were moved to Britain had good treatment . The French were a negative lot but very much in the reduced stats compared to the American military. German soldiers fleeing away from the East thought would be better treated and what happened is shocking and that book I am trying to find details the horror the vast numbers starved to death and/or health allowed to kill them.

There is also a side issue to this horror in that millions of Germans were foreced to move and larg nubers died s well as health matters. What happened to massive numbers of Germans in those camps was hardly any more principled than that dictatorship lot in the USSR.
Once again, the contents of James Bacque's book has been dismissed by historians. Not so much "Crime and Mercies" as that deals with Soviet treatment of German POWs and we already know how that turned out (most of them never made it home).
Any assertions about western allied treatment of German POW's by Bacque have been dismissed by other historians that have researched his book. You are arguing from a incorrect viewpoint and thus your topic has no credibility.
Move on.
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