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Old 05-29-2019, 05:54 PM
 
590 posts, read 116,908 times
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I have just read a book on events at the surrender of German soldiers in 1945. It is my second one and that publication was the second and brought up to date one. It was bad enough what happened to the defeated army captured by the Soviets and a horrible persecution and death. However I did not know or expect the same by the Western Allies. The Free French were involved but the large death rate in POW camps was by the USA. It ran into hundreds of thousands not only stuck uncovered but not getting the right level of food support and often virtually noting. General Eisenhower was responsible for these terrible horrors and restrictions and the deaths ran into not a few thousand but hundreds of thousands. He even issued orders that if any local people came up to the barbed wire fences they should be warned they would be shot!

The Free French were also involved but the US military was way ahead of them and the more I have dipped into this the more shocking and a disgrace on the West. Even if an occasional US officer was concerned at the state of health and the starving he was well warned and militarily threatened. It wasn't just SS troops but the ordinary German soldiers who suffered. These massive deaths also existed outwith camps when millions were forced to move but the military attitude for u here in the West supposed to be more principled. Even large numbers of the Wermacht who fled to surrender to the Western Allies rather than be treated horribly by the Soviets were to find they were to starve, become seriously ill and die in mass numbers. Yet all thathas been a quiet ignore thing.

 
Old 05-29-2019, 06:10 PM
 
Location: San Antonio/Houston
37,698 posts, read 55,360,122 times
Reputation: 89137
As far as I know the US transferred POV's for forced labor to both the UK and France (which received 740,000 from the US). For prisoners in the U.S. repatriation was also delayed for harvest reasons.

Civilians aged 14–65 in the U.S. occupation zone of Germany were also registered for compulsory labor, under threat of prison and withdrawal of ration cards. Forced labor was also included in the final protocol of the Yalta conference in January 1945. In 1946, the UK had more than 400,000 German prisoners, many had been transferred from POW camps in the US and Canada.
The two main reasons for their internment were political re-education and for non-officers employment as agricultural and other labor. About 24,000 chose to remain voluntarily in Britain.

Yeah - no welfare for them. Who was physically able to work, had to work. The whole nation took part in WWII. I don't see reasons for mercy.

Don't know about any horrors and killings of hundreds of thousands of Germans done by the US. Most captives of the Americans and the British were released by the end of 1948, and most of those in French captivity were released by the end of 1949. About 24,000 chose to remain voluntarily in Britain.

Perhaps you are confusing it with:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison...r#World_War_II
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Last edited by elnina; 05-29-2019 at 06:21 PM..
 
Old 05-29-2019, 06:10 PM
 
Location: Historic West End
4,197 posts, read 3,561,673 times
Reputation: 4024
Still no comparison if this is true, for what the Germans and Polish did to the Jews.
 
Old 05-29-2019, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Nantahala National Forest, NC
26,811 posts, read 5,726,538 times
Reputation: 30021
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjhowie View Post
I have just read a book on events at the surrender of German soldiers in 1945. It is my second one and that publication was the second and brought up to date one. It was bad enough what happened to the defeated army captured by the Soviets and a horrible persecution and death. However I did not know or expect the same by the Western Allies. The Free French were involved but the large death rate in POW camps was by the USA. It ran into hundreds of thousands not only stuck uncovered but not getting the right level of food support and often virtually noting. General Eisenhower was responsible for these terrible horrors and restrictions and the deaths ran into not a few thousand but hundreds of thousands. He even issued orders that if any local people came up to the barbed wire fences they should be warned they would be shot!

The Free French were also involved but the US military was way ahead of them and the more I have dipped into this the more shocking and a disgrace on the West. Even if an occasional US officer was concerned at the state of health and the starving he was well warned and militarily threatened. It wasn't just SS troops but the ordinary German soldiers who suffered. These massive deaths also existed outwith camps when millions were forced to move but the military attitude for u here in the West supposed to be more principled. Even large numbers of the Wermacht who fled to surrender to the Western Allies rather than be treated horribly by the Soviets were to find they were to starve, become seriously ill and die in mass numbers. Yet all thathas been a quiet ignore thing.

Cite your book please.
 
Old 05-29-2019, 07:21 PM
 
Location: NW Indiana
1,307 posts, read 1,176,019 times
Reputation: 2068
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjhowie View Post
I have just read a book on events at the surrender of German soldiers in 1945. It is my second one and that publication was the second and brought up to date one. It was bad enough what happened to the defeated army captured by the Soviets and a horrible persecution and death. However I did not know or expect the same by the Western Allies. The Free French were involved but the large death rate in POW camps was by the USA. It ran into hundreds of thousands not only stuck uncovered but not getting the right level of food support and often virtually noting. General Eisenhower was responsible for these terrible horrors and restrictions and the deaths ran into not a few thousand but hundreds of thousands. He even issued orders that if any local people came up to the barbed wire fences they should be warned they would be shot!

The Free French were also involved but the US military was way ahead of them and the more I have dipped into this the more shocking and a disgrace on the West. Even if an occasional US officer was concerned at the state of health and the starving he was well warned and militarily threatened. It wasn't just SS troops but the ordinary German soldiers who suffered. These massive deaths also existed outwith camps when millions were forced to move but the military attitude for u here in the West supposed to be more principled. Even large numbers of the Wermacht who fled to surrender to the Western Allies rather than be treated horribly by the Soviets were to find they were to starve, become seriously ill and die in mass numbers. Yet all thathas been a quiet ignore thing.
Please quote the source for these statements. "Reading a book" is not much to go on, especially when making these kinds of accusations.
 
Old 05-29-2019, 09:59 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
8,083 posts, read 2,816,523 times
Reputation: 12061
That a good number of German military were executed or died from imprisonment is almost certain.

That the US or Allied powers "murdered hundreds of thousands of them after the war" is almost certainly nonsense. Even the Russians didn't engage in wholesale executions after the cessation of hostilities.

The Germans most certainly did, all through their rise and the war, even aside from the Holocaust victims.
 
Old 05-30-2019, 01:10 AM
 
Location: Central Washington
926 posts, read 288,446 times
Reputation: 1542
My guess is that the OP read the book Other Losses, written by Canadian novelist James Bacque, or possibly something that quotes that book. Anyway the fool that wrote it claims that "over 800,000 and quite likely over one million" Germans were starved to death on purpose after the war, which is absolute nonsense that never happened. Here is part of a book review by Stephen E. Ambrose:
Quote:
When scholars do the necessary research, they will find Mr. Bacque's work to be worse than worthless. It is seriously - nay, spectacularly - flawed in its most fundamental aspects. Mr. Bacque misuses documents; he misreads documents; he ignores contrary evidence; his statistical methodology is hopelessly compromised; he makes no attempt to look at comparative contexts; he puts words into the mouth of his principal source; he ignores a readily available and absolutely critical source that decisively deals with his central accusation; and, as a consequence of these and and other shortcomings, he reaches conclusions and makes charges that are demonstrably absurd.
Stephen Ambrose: A Review of 'Other Losses'

POW mortality rates calculated by historian Niall Ferguson look like this:


Russian POWs held by Germans: 57.5%
German POWs held by Russians: 35.8%
American POWs held by Japanese: 33.0%
German POWs held by Eastern Europeans: 32.9%
British POWs held by Japanese: 24.8%
British POWs held by Germans: 3.5%
German POWs held by French: 2.58%
German POWs held by Americans: 0.15%
German POWs held by British: 0.03%

If the OP still has this book, I would recommend getting a bag of marshmallows and a stick, then throw that book out in the yard and light it on fire. It will be much more useful as a heat source rather than masquerading as a history book. Quoting Stephen Ambrose again: "Mr. Bacque is wrong on every major charge and nearly all his minor ones."
 
Old 05-30-2019, 01:23 AM
 
Location: San Antonio/Houston
37,698 posts, read 55,360,122 times
Reputation: 89137
Yeah, it amazes me that people would make (any) bold statements without checking the facts and having at least some knowledge about the events.
 
Old 05-30-2019, 01:46 AM
 
Location: Great Britain
11,394 posts, read 3,890,035 times
Reputation: 7064
Quote:
Originally Posted by elnina View Post
As far as I know the US transferred POV's for forced labor to both the UK and France (which received 740,000 from the US). For prisoners in the U.S. repatriation was also delayed for harvest reasons.

Civilians aged 14–65 in the U.S. occupation zone of Germany were also registered for compulsory labor, under threat of prison and withdrawal of ration cards. Forced labor was also included in the final protocol of the Yalta conference in January 1945. In 1946, the UK had more than 400,000 German prisoners, many had been transferred from POW camps in the US and Canada.
The two main reasons for their internment were political re-education and for non-officers employment as agricultural and other labor. About 24,000 chose to remain voluntarily in Britain.

Yeah - no welfare for them. Who was physically able to work, had to work. The whole nation took part in WWII. I don't see reasons for mercy.

Don't know about any horrors and killings of hundreds of thousands of Germans done by the US. Most captives of the Americans and the British were released by the end of 1948, and most of those in French captivity were released by the end of 1949. About 24,000 chose to remain voluntarily in Britain.

Perhaps you are confusing it with:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison...r#World_War_II


Life in British and American PoW camps was not that bad, and both countries adhered to international law. Most volunteered to work rather than sit around camps, and they mainly worked in agriculture, and many were happy to put the horrors of WW2 behind them.

Life in Britain for German Prisoners of War - BBC

World War Two – German Prisoners of War in Britain

In terms of Germany itself most people were killed by Soviet Artillery or Allied Bombing rather than being shot, however the allies did shoot some of the guards at the Concentration Camps, but I can't say I blame them for that.


Last edited by Brave New World; 05-30-2019 at 01:56 AM..
 
Old 05-30-2019, 06:57 AM
 
12,162 posts, read 18,317,849 times
Reputation: 18877
I vagually recall this being discussed in this forum years ago. I suspect the book quoted is "Other Losses" by James Bacque, a Canadian writer who claimed Eisenhower caused the death of a million POW's intentionally via starvation or disease.

Like many "histories" written by a "historian" (yes I purposely use quotes here, because in my opinion they writer is a hack, not a historian) that starts with a premise, and then writes a book collecting disjointed second hand and unverified account to prove the premise (another example is "Kill Anything that Moves")- the book is garbage.

Almost every reputable historian on the planet has dismissed the book, with the following condemnations that the author:
-misuses documents
-misreads documents
-ignores contrary evidence
-employs a statistical methodology that is hopelessly compromised
-made no attempt to see the evidence he has gathered in relation to the broader situation
-made no attempt to perform any comparative context
-puts words into the mouths of the subjects of his oral history
-ignores a readily available and absolutely critical source that decisively dealt with his central accusation
The above list was taken from Wikipedia quoting a panel of eight historians that investigated the book at the time.
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