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Old 06-03-2019, 09:24 PM
 
9,329 posts, read 4,113,421 times
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Anyone read this? I feel like Debs is someone I should read up on.


Eugene V. Debs and the Endurance of Socialism
Half man, half myth, Debs turned a radical creed into a deeply American one

By Jill Lepore


Debs was a tall man, lanky and rubbery, like a noodle... People could listen to him talk for hours. “Debs! Debs! Debs!” they’d cry, when his train pulled into a station. Crowds massed to hear him by the tens of thousands...

As one story has it, a woman waiting for Debs at a station in Illinois asked, “Is that Debs?” to which another woman replied, “Oh, no, that ain’t Debs—when Debs comes out you’ll think it’s Jesus Christ.”

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...e-of-socialism
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Old 06-03-2019, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
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The pinnacle of US socialist leaning, about on a par with communist leanings (and, to be fair, fascist leanings) of that turbulent era.
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Old 06-03-2019, 10:29 PM
 
23,553 posts, read 70,058,150 times
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Debs is important, but only in context and with an understanding of the times. First read about such things as the Homestead strike. the history of the Dukes, Jay Gould and others, and a general history of railroad development.

For those claiming the railroad magnates were benign, I have original historical Vermont State Railroad Commissioner reports that independently validate high death and injury rates and workers not being paid and the militia being used against them when they organized and stopped work. The situation in Vermont was better than most places. The issue of socialism was partly a red herring used by the owners to sway public opinion and strike fear... while they continued to play dirty tricks with workers.
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Old 06-04-2019, 09:14 AM
 
14,340 posts, read 14,158,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea View Post
Debs is important, but only in context and with an understanding of the times. First read about such things as the Homestead strike. the history of the Dukes, Jay Gould and others, and a general history of railroad development.

For those claiming the railroad magnates were benign, I have original historical Vermont State Railroad Commissioner reports that independently validate high death and injury rates and workers not being paid and the militia being used against them when they organized and stopped work. The situation in Vermont was better than most places. The issue of socialism was partly a red herring used by the owners to sway public opinion and strike fear... while they continued to play dirty tricks with workers.
This is a good post.

We are too far removed from the Guilded Age of 1870 to 1900 to understand the harm that was done to the working class in America. Many who talk about this era focus on the positive. There certainly were many positive things that took place. America built five transcontinental railroads from 1869 to 1900. Our GDP and manufacturing capabilities surpassed every country in the world. a petroleum based economy began replacing a coal based economy. Inventions like the telephone and electric lighting became commonplace in American cities. The automobile came into existence.

However, this progress took place at an enormous cost. The American Indians were almost rendered instinct during this period. A standard work day was ten to twelve hours. A standard work week was six days a week. There was no worker's compensation for injured employees or families of workers killed on the job. There was no unemployment insurance. There was no government assistance of any kind for the poor, sick, or unemployed. Unions were kept from organizing by pure force. There were many situations where the Army or state militia was called out simply to suppress a strike. In some situations, massacres of striking workers took place. I refer to the Homestead Steel Mill Strike and the Ludlow Massacre. There was no legislation prohibiting a single company from monopolizing an industry, nor preventing multiple companies from fixing wages and prices. At one point in time, Standard Oil had 90% or more of the producing capacity in the oil industry. I could go on and on. Certain jobs were incredibly risky. Railroad workers had high fatality rates and those who survived often were often missing fingers hat they had lost trying to couple train cars together. No laws prohibited child labor and you can find endless photographs showing young children working as production workers or even coal miners. Many states did not have laws requiring young children to attend school.

Gene Debs was indeed a product of this Era. What has to be said about him is that many socialists in that Era looked towards violent revolution to overthrow the capitalist system. Debs did not look towards violent revolution. He was a democratic socialist who looked towards using the political system we had in the United States to obtain a socialist agenda. In fact, he ended up forming his own movement primarily based on labor because he was offended by doctrinaire socialists.

Ultimately, Debs was wrong to advocate socialism. I think it has been shown that the best system in the world is a capitalist system that is tempered with reforms enacted by a representative government.

However, in the context of the times, I understand where Debs was coming from even if I don't agree with his solution.
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Old 06-09-2019, 09:43 PM
 
2,309 posts, read 3,828,195 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
This is a good post.

We are too far removed from the Guilded Age of 1870 to 1900 to understand the harm that was done to the working class in America. Many who talk about this era focus on the positive. There certainly were many positive things that took place. America built five transcontinental railroads from 1869 to 1900. Our GDP and manufacturing capabilities surpassed every country in the world. a petroleum based economy began replacing a coal based economy. Inventions like the telephone and electric lighting became commonplace in American cities. The automobile came into existence.

However, this progress took place at an enormous cost. The American Indians were almost rendered instinct during this period. A standard work day was ten to twelve hours. A standard work week was six days a week. There was no worker's compensation for injured employees or families of workers killed on the job. There was no unemployment insurance. There was no government assistance of any kind for the poor, sick, or unemployed. Unions were kept from organizing by pure force. There were many situations where the Army or state militia was called out simply to suppress a strike. In some situations, massacres of striking workers took place. I refer to the Homestead Steel Mill Strike and the Ludlow Massacre. There was no legislation prohibiting a single company from monopolizing an industry, nor preventing multiple companies from fixing wages and prices. At one point in time, Standard Oil had 90% or more of the producing capacity in the oil industry. I could go on and on. Certain jobs were incredibly risky. Railroad workers had high fatality rates and those who survived often were often missing fingers hat they had lost trying to couple train cars together. No laws prohibited child labor and you can find endless photographs showing young children working as production workers or even coal miners. Many states did not have laws requiring young children to attend school.

Gene Debs was indeed a product of this Era. What has to be said about him is that many socialists in that Era looked towards violent revolution to overthrow the capitalist system. Debs did not look towards violent revolution. He was a democratic socialist who looked towards using the political system we had in the United States to obtain a socialist agenda. In fact, he ended up forming his own movement primarily based on labor because he was offended by doctrinaire socialists.

Ultimately, Debs was wrong to advocate socialism. I think it has been shown that the best system in the world is a capitalist system that is tempered with reforms enacted by a representative government.

However, in the context of the times, I understand where Debs was coming from even if I don't agree with his solution.
Definitely spoken like someone who feels a little awkward giving government regulation its proper due. Lets just be honest here for a moment. While the capitalist system can be observed as the fuel behind the great achievements of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, it also was 100% unchecked and resulted in such a gross imbalance of wealth it makes the European monarchies look mild. Medieval serfs are looking at late 19th century American laborers and thinking "man....glad they ain't me"
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Old 06-10-2019, 12:27 PM
 
2,803 posts, read 3,156,552 times
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Originally Posted by greenvillebuckeye View Post
Definitely spoken like someone who feels a little awkward giving government regulation its proper due. Lets just be honest here for a moment. While the capitalist system can be observed as the fuel behind the great achievements of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, it also was 100% unchecked and resulted in such a gross imbalance of wealth it makes the European monarchies look mild. Medieval serfs are looking at late 19th century American laborers and thinking "man....glad they ain't me"
Actually, the opposite was the case. During the Guilded Age there was a massive emigration from European monarchies to the US. The last massive immigration wave from Western Europe. This is how there are so many German last names in the US today. If living conditions of European workers had been close to their US contemporaries this would have never happened. The reality and the truth is how people vote with their feet. The reality is that US workers lived better in the Guilded Age than any worker anywhere else in the world. Hence they all scrambled to get here.
To state that medieval serfs lived better is close to madness. Child mortality was 50% to 5%, infectious diseases were rampant as were regular famines killing 20% of the populations. I mean we all like our personal ideologies - they should not completely shield us from reality. This is like being part of the woke echo chamber.
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