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Old 06-09-2019, 07:56 AM
 
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A good objective and fair book I found on the Crusades is "The Crusades, The Authoritative History of the War for the Holy Land" by Thomas Asbridge. History using various western and muslim sources, no side is really exclusively the good guy, or the bad guy, in this history. It's also very accessible.
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Old 06-09-2019, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
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Thanks for the feedback, that gives me some things to start reading. Much appreciated.
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Old 06-09-2019, 03:09 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
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Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
I'm a former Mormon who went to Catholic school and is now a Muslim. Islam does not worship Jesus, but reveres him both as a Prophet and the Messiah.
My comment was roughly worded, mostly to clue those who think Islam is anti-Jesus or something. Corrections noted.

Ah, lapsed Mormons. Always a good personal-search story to tell.
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:32 PM
 
Location: NE Mississippi
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Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
Thanks for the feedback, that gives me some things to start reading. Much appreciated.
I liked the series on Curiosity Stream, The Crusades.
For me to understand The Crusades, I had to go back and try to understand the state of Christianity in 1095, when Pope Urban urged all Christians to go to war against Islam. What made the Christians of that time try to follow his lead? In other words, how did Christianity become so war-like and its leaders so powerful?
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Old 06-14-2019, 07:03 AM
 
Location: western East Roman Empire
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Originally Posted by Listener2307 View Post
I liked the series on Curiosity Stream, The Crusades.
For me to understand The Crusades, I had to go back and try to understand the state of Christianity in 1095, when Pope Urban urged all Christians to go to war against Islam. What made the Christians of that time try to follow his lead? In other words, how did Christianity become so war-like and its leaders so powerful?
The Romans of 1095, with their funny hats - the style in those days, and not just in Rome -, caused to attack and kill more so-called christians all around the periphery of Europe (England, Spain/Portugal, southern Italy, Greece, eastern Europe/Russia) and the Mediterranean (all post-Ephesos and Chalcedon christians who broke away from Rome) than they did so-called muslims, it made no difference to them.

It made no difference to them. None.

Ideologies change over a thousand-year period, as styles and fads do from generation to generation, because humans like to kid themselves, like you are doing now, but the motivations in the big picture are the same: control of land and commerce, jealousy and lust for power.

The sea change - literally change of sea, from Mediterranean Sea, North Sea, Sea of Marmara, Black Sea ... to Atlantic Ocean and beyond - occurred with circumnavigation of the globe and firearms, which the funny-hat Romans of 1095 and their Germanic proxies did not conceive.

You should also ask yourself what they did to the so-called christians of southern India about 500 years later.

In their pursuit of control of land and commerce, jealousy and lust for power, it made no difference to them. None.

But, because humans like to kid themselves ...

Last edited by bale002; 06-14-2019 at 07:39 AM..
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Old 06-14-2019, 11:47 AM
 
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It was about greed, jealousy & envy, particularly over the loss of the earlier incarnation of the Roman empire as mistress of the Mid-land Sea trade routes.
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Old 06-14-2019, 12:56 PM
 
12,153 posts, read 18,317,849 times
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Originally Posted by Listener2307 View Post
I liked the series on Curiosity Stream, The Crusades.
For me to understand The Crusades, I had to go back and try to understand the state of Christianity in 1095, when Pope Urban urged all Christians to go to war against Islam. What made the Christians of that time try to follow his lead? In other words, how did Christianity become so war-like and its leaders so powerful?
That's a good starting point but you have to go back even farther than that - to the conquest of Jerusalem by Muslims in 638. It's more complex than that of course. Christians were taking back Spain, and Muslims continued to clash with the Christian Orthodox Byzantium empire. It was actually an appeal by the Byzantium leader to the pope that helped trigger it, the plea to Pope Urban to "help a brother out".

And Muslims? The Levant was a backwater for them and the muslim world was fractured into separate caliphates and power centers. As far as Jerusalem goes, it all depends on who you ask, even with the writing at the time - some said Christians were allowed to freely live, visit, and worship, others said that Christians living in the area were persecuted, holy sites (except the ones shared by both, or sometimes three, different faiths) destroyed, and Christian pilgrims forbidden to visit.

But in regards to the state of Europe in the Middle Ages, that points to the state of Christianity. Europe was transitioning out of the dark ages of chaos and establishing stable monarchy's finally, Christendom likewise a mess. Pope Urban saw this as part of his plan for reformation and unification. What is better than a common cause? Christianity as a religion was overwhelming and all encompassing, it consumed the population. God fearing was not just a saying, but gospel. As was self-sacrifice. And the Pope from then until the end of the middle ages had more power than a nation's king. As far as violence goes, Christianity held that violence was sinful even then, but was justified under certain circumstances. Retaking the holy land by force and violence was quickly deemed justified. Urban, clever as he was, focused on the warrior class of that time - the knights. A good fight to them was like a kid going to Disney World, just point them in the right direction. The kings, the other noblemen, and the pheasants, overwhelmed by the call of God and the examples of knights, quickly followed. Note however the goal wasn't a Crusade against the Muslim faith necessarily, but simply to retake the holy lands. There were certain goals, all of which exceeded expectations in the First Crusades, only to fall apart in later centuries.
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