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Old 08-01-2019, 08:31 PM
 
Location: Myrtle Creek, Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by history nerd View Post
I curse all the time, don't flatter yourself. Neolithic civilizations are very different from paleolithic hunter gatherers by the way.
Most North American natives are best compared with post-pottery neolithic in the Old World.
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Old 08-02-2019, 06:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Caldwell View Post
Most North American natives are best compared with post-pottery neolithic in the Old World.
Yes, upper Neolithic with some civilizations perhaps on the cusp of bronze age. Lots of favorable similarities to old kingdom Egypt, Mesopotamia, the Indus people, and Neolithic Europe.
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Old 08-02-2019, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Myrtle Creek, Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by history nerd View Post
Yes, upper Neolithic with some civilizations perhaps on the cusp of bronze age. Lots of favorable similarities to old kingdom Egypt, Mesopotamia, the Indus people, and Neolithic Europe.
Chalcolithic in mid-continent from the Great Lakes to the Gulf, and independently in Utah, but they used native copper and never progressed to smelting. They have excavated a copper forge at Cahokia. Copper artifacts have been dated to 6000 bce. Early artifacts tended to be tools, while later copper takes the form of jewelry and religious artifacts.

There was iron working of drift iron in the PNW, mostly salvaged from Japanese shipwrecks. As I have mentioned, they also sourced iron from Asia via the Aleutian trade route, but it's unlikely an individual canoe ever made the whole journey. Aleuts lived from SW coastal Alaska to Kamchatka, including the Aleutian Islands and would have passed trade goods from village to village.
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Old 08-02-2019, 12:32 PM
 
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Any idea how the copper they had would compare to modern plumbing copper, ad far as hardness, malleability, etc?

I chose plumbing copper because it is probably something every one is familiar with. And pennies are an alloy.

Were they alloying the copper with anything?
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Old 08-02-2019, 08:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Caldwell View Post
Chalcolithic in mid-continent from the Great Lakes to the Gulf, and independently in Utah, but they used native copper and never progressed to smelting. They have excavated a copper forge at Cahokia. Copper artifacts have been dated to 6000 bce. Early artifacts tended to be tools, while later copper takes the form of jewelry and religious artifacts.

There was iron working of drift iron in the PNW, mostly salvaged from Japanese shipwrecks. As I have mentioned, they also sourced iron from Asia via the Aleutian trade route, but it's unlikely an individual canoe ever made the whole journey. Aleuts lived from SW coastal Alaska to Kamchatka, including the Aleutian Islands and would have passed trade goods from village to village.
I am aware, yes. There is also evidence of the Inuit working meteoric iron despite being much more nomadic.
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Old 08-03-2019, 03:58 PM
 
Location: Myrtle Creek, Oregon
12,462 posts, read 12,652,121 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madison999 View Post
Any idea how the copper they had would compare to modern plumbing copper, ad far as hardness, malleability, etc?

I chose plumbing copper because it is probably something every one is familiar with. And pennies are an alloy.

Were they alloying the copper with anything?
Pennies are not copper, they are zinc with a copper wash.

Since they were not smelting, there was no possibility of an alloy. Native copper is veins of pure copper. Most of it was cold worked and pretty brittle.
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Old Today, 05:44 PM
 
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Native Americans didn't have written languages so it would be difficult to pass on complex ideas from one generation to another.
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Old Today, 05:54 PM
 
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Glanced through the first page. Here’s my theory. War and limited number of people with knowledge. Those who had the knowledge closely guarded their secrets. If their tribe lost the battle with another tribe then those with the knowledge are among the men killed.
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Old Today, 07:45 PM
 
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
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Native cultures to north America built a lot of things out of wood. Wood burns. Wood rots away. Stone and hard mud can last for centuries.

Also the premise of this thread is wrong at its heart, because despite the above, many scars of Native civilization do remain! Mounds, trails, footprints of old cities, and even stone cairns.

Likewise, Europeans erased as much as possible. Once again... wood burns...

The tribes and nations of the north were just as advanced, but with different tools and natural surroundings to work with. The Haudenosaunee had a very ingenious form of government! Also the war parties of the south (Aztec, for example) would have had a very hard time surviving in the north, particularly in battle. Many northern tribes were brilliant guerrilla fighters, and would have also known to use winter against the southern invaders.
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