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Old 06-24-2019, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean1the1 View Post
I think this is backwards the first civilizations didn't occur in places where you'd think. They occurred in the middle of the desert, meaning people became civilized out of nessecity with such scarcity of resources innovation was bound to occur, and from Mesopotamia civilization migrated northward.
And I think this is borne out by all that we know of the native Americans. Those in very lush, productive areas like California through the northwest coast had much simpler societies and less "civilization" as measured in permanent domicile, advanced government etc. because they could literally live off the land with only modest effort to get through winter and so forth.

The more difficult surviving year-round gets, in both climate, growing season, predators and adjacent tribes, the more sophistication in community development, government etc. is seen. Thus the two most developed areas are the Northeast and the Southwest.

(All very loosely speaking; don't pick me apart re the Gulf tribes etc. )
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Old 07-13-2019, 02:28 PM
Status: "Nobody's right if everybody's wrong" (set 29 days ago)
 
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
9,844 posts, read 21,150,344 times
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Native Americans north of present Mexico were far more advanced centuries ago than at European contact in 1600s. Natives by 1600 were in something of a dark age. Their ancestors built large earthen mounds topped with elaborate wood buildings, lived in cities that sometimes had thousands of residents, and trade routes that extended a thousand miles. Google Serpent Mound in Ohio. To create something like that took a high degree of geometry and math to construct. I think Mexico southward the Natives developed better kinds of crops and thus were better able to withstand famines and climate variations.
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Old 07-13-2019, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Aurora Denveralis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by censusdata View Post
...Serpent Mound in Ohio...took a high degree of geometry and math to construct.
Not really. It's an immense amount of labor that probably took years to complete, which says quite a bit in itself, but any kid at the beach can make miniature equivalents. A clear view, perhaps some raised platforms and simple string-and-stake type layout guides, if even that, are all that's needed.

And the reason for the decline of native civilization is almost certainly disease, which wiped out 80 to 95% of the populations in a matter of years. (Leaving, it is rarely noted, a far less virgin and far more farming-ready landscape than traditional tales have it.)
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Old 07-14-2019, 09:34 AM
 
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They did... Visit Mesa Verde here in Colorado.
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Old 07-14-2019, 10:14 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
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Quote:
Originally Posted by history nerd View Post
They did... Visit Mesa Verde here in Colorado.
That, and other examples, were covered earlier in the thread. I think one thing a lot of people don't realize, is that the common people, the farmers and laborers of the Aztec and Mayan cultures, all lived in thatch huts. The temple complexes and pyramids were for the elite, or for ceremonial purposes. In fact, at first, even the pyramids had thatch huts at the top, that were later replaced with stone.

So when viewing the mounds of the Mississippian culture, people may think this is much more primitive, because there are no huge buildings and temple complexes, and people still lived in thatch-roof houses, but the mounds in some cases were temple-mounds, like in the civilizations farther south. They were ceremonial centers. There are many similarities with the Mesoamerican civilizations. Their ceremonial and elite construction didn't reach the same heights, but it was in other ways a comparable civilization.
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Old 07-14-2019, 11:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by history nerd View Post
They did... Visit Mesa Verde here in Colorado.
Mesa Verde is mainly cliffside cave dwellings.
The indigenous people of North America prior to Columbus had no number system, no alphabet, no writing.. thus no written history, nether ovens nor knowledge of iron making, thus no metal tools to enable farming on a scale large enough to support permanent towns, few if any domesticated animals, no timekeeping beside 'moons', no significant stringed instruments or musical notation, very basic communal/tribal civic organization, no seaworthy vessels .. and last but most importantly NO WHEEL!

They were primitive people of the stone age, i.e. cavemen or hunter/gatherer nomads primarily.
They had nothing remotely close to a civilization as the word is generally understood today.
The Incas and Aztecs were only slightly more advanced.

Why?
Your guess is as good as mine.... and mine will make no one happy so I'll keep it to myself.
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Old 07-14-2019, 11:37 AM
 
707 posts, read 154,557 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PamelaIamela View Post
Mesa Verde is mainly cliffside cave dwellings.
The indigenous people of North America prior to Columbus had no number system, no alphabet, no writing.. thus no written history, nether ovens nor knowledge of iron making, thus no metal tools to enable farming on a scale large enough to support permanent towns, few if any domesticated animals, no timekeeping beside 'moons', no significant stringed instruments or musical notation, very basic communal/tribal civic organization, no seaworthy vessels .. and last but most importantly NO WHEEL!

They were primitive people of the stone age, i.e. cavemen or hunter/gatherer nomads primarily.
They had nothing remotely close to a civilization as the word is generally understood today.
The Incas and Aztecs were only slightly more advanced.

Why?
Your guess is as good as mine.... and mine will make no one happy so I'll keep it to myself.
This is silly.

Mesa Verde does not mainly consist of caves.

Native Americans immediately pre-Columbian were nowhere close to being 'cavemen'. Agriculture was widespread in North America, even north of the Rio Grande (you seem to differentiate between Mesoamerica and North America, but the former is merely a subset of the latter). The Three Sisters, for example (beans, squash, corn) were established crops in Virginia by the year 900.

The base-10 number system was in wide use among pre-Columbian Native Americans. Base-20s systems were not uncommon. Base-16 and base-5 systems are also documented. A lack of a base- system was the exception rather than the rule. Basic arithmetic was understood, and representation of certain numbers was often expressed in terms of multiplication. Mesoamerican mathematics were even more advanced, and the Aztecs (among others) possessed complex calendars. The Mayans and Olmecs possessed numerals, as did some others. The Mayans even had a symbol representing zero.

And, yes, permanent towns (and some small cities) existed, even north of the Rio Grande.
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Old 07-14-2019, 11:51 AM
 
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I would guess colder weather and geography. More land and not many natural barriers. Nobody wanted to live too far beyond the coasts long term, much like today. Not sure why things would be different back then.
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Old 07-14-2019, 03:16 PM
 
1,212 posts, read 437,796 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2x3x29x41 View Post
This is silly.

Mesa Verde does not mainly consist of caves.

Native Americans immediately pre-Columbian were nowhere close to being 'cavemen'. Agriculture was widespread in North America, even north of the Rio Grande (you seem to differentiate between Mesoamerica and North America, but the former is merely a subset of the latter). The Three Sisters, for example (beans, squash, corn) were established crops in Virginia by the year 900.

The base-10 number system was in wide use among pre-Columbian Native Americans. Base-20s systems were not uncommon. Base-16 and base-5 systems are also documented. A lack of a base- system was the exception rather than the rule. Basic arithmetic was understood, and representation of certain numbers was often expressed in terms of multiplication. Mesoamerican mathematics were even more advanced, and the Aztecs (among others) possessed complex calendars. The Mayans and Olmecs possessed numerals, as did some others. The Mayans even had a symbol representing zero.

And, yes, permanent towns (and some small cities) existed, even north of the Rio Grande.
I was not referring to the Aztecs or Mayans re numbers or calendars.
I have unearthed no evidence of large towns.. like with roads, buildings, etc. north of the Rio Grande. Where are their ruins? I'd love to visit them.

I have traveled the American SW extensively and I have passed thru places called Old Oraibi (est.circa 1100-1200), and more recent villages of Kykotsmovi, Polacca and Shungopavi on or around Second and Third Mesa,AZ. They consist mainly of shacks and a field of outhouses. Are these the 'cities' you refer to?
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Old 07-14-2019, 03:54 PM
 
985 posts, read 525,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PamelaIamela View Post
I was not referring to the Aztecs or Mayans re numbers or calendars.
I have unearthed no evidence of large towns.. like with roads, buildings, etc. north of the Rio Grande. Where are their ruins? I'd love to visit them.

I have traveled the American SW extensively and I have passed thru places called Old Oraibi (est.circa 1100-1200), and more recent villages of Kykotsmovi, Polacca and Shungopavi on or around Second and Third Mesa,AZ. They consist mainly of shacks and a field of outhouses. Are these the 'cities' you refer to?
Yeah... It's very clear that you are a tourist with no understanding of archaeology, no one cares about your ****ty road trip.
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