U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-18-2019, 06:44 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
40,816 posts, read 18,549,595 times
Reputation: 18647

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal View Post
Females could not inherit under Romanov house rules. thus there was no reason for the harsh treatment and subsequent murders of the empress, her daughters, and various sisters or other female members of the imperial family.
That isn't how the Bolsheviks saw it. In their view any living Romanov, male or female, provided a symbol of the old, reactionary Russia. Please do not take this as a moral defense of their view, I'm just pointing out that they did have a reason for what they did. Their enemies in the Civil War, The Whites, included many who were fighting to restore the monarchy. Eliminating all traces of the old monarchy made sense to them.

The Reds suffered 950,000 casualties in this war, the Whites 650,000. I'm sure that none of the dead felt that they were deserving of it while the Romanov family was not.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-19-2019, 10:03 AM
 
1,087 posts, read 1,143,309 times
Reputation: 829
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe from dayton View Post
Commonly attributed to her, though historians doubt that it was ever said. It does make a nice anecdote to drive home the fact that the ruling class was oblivious to what was happening with the lower classes, and their collective experience trying to get by.
I just started reading about the French Revolution. I hope to know more about her in the next couple of books on her.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-19-2019, 10:08 AM
 
1,087 posts, read 1,143,309 times
Reputation: 829
Quote:
Originally Posted by katharsis View Post
As a carrier of muscular dystrophy, the Romanov tragedy has fascinated me for decades. I often wonder how history would have been changed if Alexandra had not been a carrier of hemophilia.
I am not sure to what extent but I would think to a larger extent the stories wouldve been different.
For starters, Alexandra wouldnt always have been so unhappy, making the Tsar so edgy all the time.

2. her frequent absence from the court could have been prevented if Alexei was well and she had a little extra time on her.

3. Rasputin wouldnt have entered into her life

while the revolution in itself wouldnt have been stopped, it would have stalled the rapid progression.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-19-2019, 10:17 AM
 
1,087 posts, read 1,143,309 times
Reputation: 829
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
The events explain it and are more complicated than people think.

There were two revolutions in 1917. The first revolution occurred in March and forced the czar to abdicate his thrown. The provisional government under Alexander Kerensky took power. Kerensky had no desire to kill the czar or his family. He tried to find a foreign country to take him in. This was problematic. Europe was tired of fighting World War I and anti-war and anti-monarchy movements were springing up in England and other countries. The czar was not looked on favorably. The other issue was that Kerensky might have been the head-of-state, but he was not in full control of Russia. Some cities were ungoverned and some were governed by councils of workers. The czar would not have been safe passing through such areas on a train or otherwise.

A decision was made by Kerensky hold the czar in protective custody until a country could be found to take him in . Before such a country could be found a second revolution took place. In October 1917, the Bolsheviks took power in a military coup. Kerensky went into exile and the unfortunate czar was taken prisoner by the Bolsheviks. Bolshevik leaders, Lenin, and Trotsky struggled over what to do with Nicholas and his family. One thought was to bring him to trial and broadcast the trial by radio throughout the new Soviet Union. This idea was rejected because the Bolsheviks soon found themselves in the midst of a civil war with white Russians.

The czar was transported to Ekaterinburg in the Ural Mountains. A decision was reached by the Bolsheviks to kill the czar and his family. This was done in 1918.
Kerensky? Hm, this is a new side to me. In all the books I had read, of the first hand accounts (including Lili D, Peirre G and Anna V), they all maintain that the days between Abdication and the removal from the palace were very hostile to the point of being cut off from water supply.
Can you pls help point where you read about Kernskey and his help to the family (I didnt read of any support from him while still at petrograd)? Unless I missed the fact where it was Kernsky, though supportive of the Romanovs, still had to remain hostile.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-19-2019, 01:02 PM
 
233 posts, read 70,168 times
Reputation: 353
l learned from my neighbors, who are members of the Russian Orthodox Church, that the Tsar and his family were recognized as martyred saints by the Russian Orthodox Church in the 1980s. But, they told me that there was some controversy over this move, as members of the Russian royal family were not killed on account of their religious faith.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-19-2019, 01:20 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
78,508 posts, read 70,430,585 times
Reputation: 76469
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe from dayton View Post
Is there a question in there?
Yes. She asked for people's thoughts on the interpretations of history she gave.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-19-2019, 01:31 PM
 
20,701 posts, read 13,720,547 times
Reputation: 14378
Quote:
Originally Posted by katharsis View Post
As a carrier of muscular dystrophy, the Romanov tragedy has fascinated me for decades. I often wonder how history would have been changed if Alexandra had not been a carrier of hemophilia.
Princess Alix of Hesse of and by the Rhine was a carrier of *haemophilia*, not muscular dystrophy. This came via her grandmother Queen Victoria. Have seen no research or anything else that proves or even suggests the empress carried muscular dystrophy. Even if she had since the disease didn't manifest itself in any of her children it is a moot point far as history is concerned.

Because Queen Victoria and Prince Albert had so many children (and later grandchildren) who married into European royal houses the Saxe-Coburgs spread that gene all over the Continent with disastrous results.


Haemophilia in the Descendants of Queen Victoria
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-19-2019, 02:06 PM
 
20,701 posts, read 13,720,547 times
Reputation: 14378
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maila View Post
I am not sure to what extent but I would think to a larger extent the stories wouldve been different.
For starters, Alexandra wouldnt always have been so unhappy, making the Tsar so edgy all the time.

2. her frequent absence from the court could have been prevented if Alexei was well and she had a little extra time on her.

3. Rasputin wouldnt have entered into her life

while the revolution in itself wouldnt have been stopped, it would have stalled the rapid progression.

It cannot be overstated just how much the "German princess" Alix of Hesse of and by the Rhine was not liked (or even hated) hated not just by many Russians, but members of the Romanov family and Russian nobility.

Much like Marie-Antoinette (whose portrait hung in the empresses' Mauve boudoir) Alix was detested before her arrival, and her approval ratings never moved much off that mark. Indeed Alix was warned about that portrait of MA, as the sad and tragic ending to the French queen was pointed out, but the woman took no mind.

Alexander III and his consort Empress Marie did all they could to put their son off Alexandra. Nicholas simply replied he loved the German princess and would have no other for his wife. If they refused his choice for a bride Nicholas said he would simply wait until he was czar and could do as he wished. Tragically not long after (begrudgingly) giving consent czar Alexander III was assassinated (blown up), which put the young and inexperienced Nicholas on the throne. Worse it soon became evident the man was far to besotted with his wife than was good for himself and Russia.

To understand princess Alexandra of Hesse, you must know of her background (mother and sibling dying while she was young), and subsequently being literally raised (if from afar) by her grandmother Queen Victoria.

That early life produced not a "German" princess but an English lady, who was a bit of a prude and everything else one commonly associates with high born English "virtuous" women.

Alexandra was shy and introverted, she certainly wasn't used to the grand ways of Russian Imperial court.

As often with persons who are shy it manifested itself in detesting public functions and or being out of safe, protected and comfortable circle. Alexandra hated court ceremony and detested doing what was expected of her from the start.

At her first reception as new empress Alexandra was made to stand and receive a long line of Russian ladies (members of the court and so forth), at which she kept glancing down the line to see just how many more were coming...

At her first ball (as either empress or before the marriage) Princess Alix was shocked at what she considered the louche behavior of the Russian Imperial court. Alexandra was particularly offended by the low (in some cases very) décolletage worn by the Russian ladies. Upon spying one particular extreme offender Alexandra dispatched one of her ladies in attendance with a reprimand.

To the offender - "Her Imperial Highness wishes me to inform you that in Hesse-Darmstadt we do not wear our dresses that way".

Offending lady - "Tell her Imperial Majesty in Russia we do"! And with that yanked her bodice down even lower.

From then on it was pretty much war between Alexandra and the Russian Imperial court and or Romanov family.

The latter accused Alexandra of "stealing" Nicholas away by keeping him shut up in Tsarskoe Selo (both the czar and czarina preferred their own company, something that grew as their family expanded), or any of the other imperial homes.

The Romanovs and others also objected to the way newly converted Alexandra embraced Russian Orthodoxy. Here were those who had been brought up all their lives in that religion, and they didn't take kindly to a newly confirmed czarina telling them how to practice their faith.

But that was Alexandra all over; it was all or nothing, so when she embraced something she went in the deep end.

During a military conflict (Russian-Japanese war?), Alexandra suggested to the ladies of the Imperial court they organize a knitting circle (as her grandmother Queen Victoria did with her ladies and others) to provide things for the soldiers. The great Russian ladies by and large told Alexandra they had no time for such nonsense, and that was that.

Though inaccurate in some respects, this clip from the BBC production "The Lost Prince" pretty much shows how people thought of Nicholas II and Empress Alexandra:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0eMgRkQX80
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-19-2019, 04:08 PM
 
6,520 posts, read 1,336,586 times
Reputation: 16518
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal View Post
Princess Alix of Hesse of and by the Rhine was a carrier of *haemophilia*, not muscular dystrophy. This came via her grandmother Queen Victoria. Have seen no research or anything else that proves or even suggests the empress carried muscular dystrophy. Even if she had since the disease didn't manifest itself in any of her children it is a moot point far as history is concerned.

Haemophilia in the Descendants of Queen Victoria
I clearly said that Alexandra was a carrier of hemophilia, NOT muscular dystrophy. The only reason I brought up muscular dystrophy was because I was a carrier of that disease, and I know how that fact has affected my own life, and not for the better -- and so I just wondered how much of the fact that Alexandra was responsible for the hemophilia disease in her own child affected history, and what the outcome would have been if she had not passed the disease onto Alexei.

Here is my original post, and I have bolded the relevant sections.

"As a carrier of muscular dystrophy, the Romanov tragedy has fascinated me for decades. I often wonder how history would have been changed if Alexandra had not been a carrier of hemophilia."

P.S. Both spellings of hemophilia are correct, btw. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...s/syc-20373327
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-19-2019, 04:25 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
78,508 posts, read 70,430,585 times
Reputation: 76469
I still don't see why people hated Alexandra. I would have thought, that after Catherine the Great, Germanic monarchs weren't seen as a bad thing, necessarily. Or was Catherine hated eventually, as well? If so, why was she called "the Great"?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top