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Old 06-20-2019, 10:33 PM
 
9,181 posts, read 9,263,338 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal View Post
Talk about pouring gasoline onto a fire! *LOL*

Of all the dumbest moves Nicholas II could have made making the czarina in charge was one of if not the stupidest things he could have done. That decision likely was the last nail in coffin of the czar's reign.

The hysterical wreck Empress Alexandra was out of her depth, and totally ill equipped to stand in as a monarch during peace time; but for a Russia at war and a power keg of revolution about to explode, it was just the last straw that broke Russia's back.

Again as one has said often in this thread, all the moaning and sympathy for Nicholas II and his wife are of recent vintage; certainly after their deaths. Dowager Empress Marie and other Romanovs had not only to adjust to their new situation post revolution, but also the murders of their family members *and* the fact much of the sorry mess could be laid at the feet of Nicholas and Alexandra.
All Nicholas needed to do was find a competent prime minister and let that person pick a cabinet and run the Russian government. He wouldn't do it and instead preferred to do things like leave his unpopular German wife in charge of things.

Than when riots broke out in St. Petersburg because the people had no bread to eat, Nicholas ordered the Russian Army to shoot those breaking into stores to get food. More revolutions have probably begun because the peasants ran out of food than for any other reason.

Russia was ripe for revolution. It could easily have happened in 1905--twelve years earlier--after Bloody Sunday, but somehow they were able to keep a lid on it. This time, the Russian people would murder every noble they could get their hands on.
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Old 06-20-2019, 11:21 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
78,508 posts, read 70,430,585 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal View Post
Talk about pouring gasoline onto a fire! *LOL*

Of all the dumbest moves Nicholas II could have made making the czarina in charge was one of if not the stupidest things he could have done. That decision likely was the last nail in coffin of the czar's reign.

The hysterical wreck Empress Alexandra was out of her depth, and totally ill equipped to stand in as a monarch during peace time; but for a Russia at war and a power keg of revolution about to explode, it was just the last straw that broke Russia's back.

Again as one has said often in this thread, all the moaning and sympathy for Nicholas II and his wife are of recent vintage; certainly after their deaths. Dowager Empress Marie and other Romanovs had not only to adjust to their new situation post revolution, but also the murders of their family members *and* the fact much of the sorry mess could be laid at the feet of Nicholas and Alexandra.
This is interesting. So, what happened to Marie, after the revolution? She must have emigrated?
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Old 06-20-2019, 11:22 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
78,508 posts, read 70,430,585 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
All Nicholas needed to do was find a competent prime minister and let that person pick a cabinet and run the Russian government. He wouldn't do it and instead preferred to do things like leave his unpopular German wife in charge of things.

Than when riots broke out in St. Petersburg because the people had no bread to eat, Nicholas ordered the Russian Army to shoot those breaking into stores to get food. More revolutions have probably begun because the peasants ran out of food than for any other reason.

Russia was ripe for revolution. It could easily have happened in 1905--twelve years earlier--after Bloody Sunday, but somehow they were able to keep a lid on it. This time, the Russian people would murder every noble they could get their hands on.
This sounds like WWI and the hardships it brought across Europe including Russia, was one of the catalysts for the Revolution.
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Old 06-21-2019, 02:02 AM
 
20,701 posts, read 13,720,547 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
This sounds like WWI and the hardships it brought across Europe including Russia, was one of the catalysts for the Revolution.
Russia had been ill for decades; WWI just brought out the rash.

Depending upon who one asks, there were several causes of the Russian Revolution.

First was the autocratic rule of the czars. Alexander II brought some reforms to Russian government, but Alexander III and Nicholas II were despotic rulers who among other things weakened if not banned political parties.

Next came the policy of "Russification " begun under Alexander III and continued by his heir Nicholas II. One Czar, One Church, One Russia was the policy across the empire, this included Poland, Lithuania and Finland where students were forced to learn Russian, and the speaking/learning of native languages was suppressed. As you can imagine this caused no end of resentment towards the czars.

Before the revolution Russia had two classes; the nobles, feudal lords and rich belonged to the "wealthy class", while the peasants, labourers and serfs belonged to the poor. Alexander III liberated the serfs which ticked off the feudal lords. The serfs in turn were upset that they never would be able to own land, the laboring/working class were ticked off because they got low pay and couldn't remotely live their lives to any extent of happiness. The political parties were unhappy because they couldn't achieve anything. All this with the secret police everywhere breathing down people's necks. Say or do the wrong thing and you ended up imprisoned, sent into exile or worse. This is what happened to Lenin's brother IIRC and was one of his biggest grudges against the czars/Romanovs.

Pouring fuel onto this fire was the rise and spread of Nihilism, a movement that preached the end of prevailing Russian society from the czars down through the church and other systems.

Finally there was the effects of the Industrial Revolution which finally was reaching Russia.

Just as it had done across Western Europe, North America and elsewhere the industrial revolution unleashed forces that eventually brought down the old orders. Laborers were no longer isolated on farms but came together in large cities/factories and so forth. They spoke among themselves and movements began to "free" themselves from "Milord" or whoever was running things which in many countries included monarchs.

As have said Nicholas II should have learned from his father's assassination, and reflected upon the causes for so much hate. But no, the new czar doubled down on bad policies that ultimately lead him and his family down that staircase into a cellar to be murdered.

Yes, there was a shortage of bread/food, but just as with the beginnings of French Revolution, such things could have been managed. Both the Russian and French revolutions may or may not have been about bread at the start, but the more deeper cause was simply a monarchy/government that had overstayed its welcome.

You notice in the above I didn't mention a middle class; well that was another huge problem with Russia. In order to have a thriving constitutional monarchy or democracy you need a strong middle class.
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Old 06-21-2019, 10:57 AM
 
Location: MN
152 posts, read 275,826 times
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Quote:
He was utterly ill prepared when Alexander III was assassinated.
Quote:
Tragically not long after (begrudgingly) giving consent czar Alexander III was assassinated (blown up), which put the young and inexperienced Nicholas on the throne.
Quote:
As have said Nicholas II should have learned from his father's assassination,
Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe it was Alexander II not the III that was assassinated.
Quote:
You would think that after the assination of his father (by bomb) Nicholas II would have seen the light, but not a bit of it. One would also think the Romanovs would have learned from the Bourbons (and to extent the Bonapartes), in that the time for absolute monarchies had long passed.
The Tsars did learn, that industrialization and "enlightenment" brings an end to despotic monarchies; the Tsardom tried to hamper industrialization and "enlightenment."

Quote:
I am not really sure if Stoylpin would have succeeded in preventing the revolution though
I believe Lenin regarded Stolypin as the most dangerous antagonist of the Russian revolutionaries.

Quote:
The czar was transported to Ekaterinburg in the Ural Mountains. A decision was reached by the Bolsheviks to kill the czar and his family. This was done in 1918.
I believe the Bolsheviks did intend to put the Tsar on trial, but in the 1918 summer, the white armies were advancing on Yekaterinburg and so it became more expedient to just remove the Tsar than moving him around until trial or let him be captured.

Quote:
Lenin had a score to settle not just with the Romanovs but entire old order of royalty, nobles, elite and so forth. Read the book "Former People" to learn just what brutal horrors Lenin and Bolsheviks carried out against such persons.
Machiavelli: "Thence it was that all prophets who came with arms in hand were successful, whilst those who were not armed were ruined."

Letting blood run comes with revolutionary territory. American, French, Russian, etc. If a revolutionary does is not willing to defend their new order with bloodshed, then they might as well give it all up. To bring about a new society, the old must be broken.

Quote:
Whatever hopes and dreams of a "new" Russia promised by Lenin/Bolsheviks never quite happened.
It was the Bolsheviks that industrialized Russia, ended famines, taught the peasantry/laborers to read, eradicated pogroms, became a superpower, sent men into space. The USSR may have fallen short of its aims, but it was still a stunning success in its first 50 years or so. The Bolsheviks started without anything in 1917 and the whole world against them, by 1924 they had a decimated backward country wracked by invasion and war and famine, and by the 1950s were a superpower. They promised the "Russian masses" peace, land, and bread and delivered; the liberals did not.
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Old 06-22-2019, 04:13 AM
 
20,701 posts, read 13,720,547 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katharsis View Post
On another note, although most of you probably know of this, the case of Anna Anderson (the Anastasia impostor) is absolutely fascinating. The book by Peter Kurth, The Riddle of Anna Anderson, truly had me questioning whether Anastaia did survive, until I read The Resurrection of the Romanovs by King and Wilson.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/..._new_Afterword

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...f-the-romanovs
Actually read Peter Kurth's book, and it did make a compelling case. But the Romanov family had Anna Anderson run to ground decades before her death. She was Franziska Schanzkowska, a Polish factory worker with a history of mental illness. That it would take the invention and perfection of DNA analysis to later prove this true shows how even back in the day without modern tools or whatever, people could still put two and two together.

The Romanovs, especially dowager empress Marie were suspicious and leery of Anna Anderson and her claims from the start.

For one thing it would confirm what the dowager called "rumors"; that her son and his family were murdered.

Next there was the shame of rape which was very strong at that time.

There had been constant and persistent rumors then and even today that one or more of the grand duchesses had been criminally interfered with by an intimate and violent nature by their jailers. God knows females of the noble, wealthy, land owning classes of all ages were not spared that fate by the Bolsheviks and their followers. Again read the book "Former People" which goes into such things in vivid detail.

That a grand duchess of Russia "gave" herself to some unknown and not named man (or was raped) who then conveniently vanishes was bad enough. But the story got worse with Anna Anderson claiming she gave birth to a child (son) as a result whom she "left behind". This was more than the surviving members of the Romanov family, in particular the dowager empress, could bear.

To have Anna Anderson going around telling her story, and media lapping it up meant the matter had to be sorted. Also if on the off chance there was any truth to a bit of it (Anna Anderson truly being Anastasia, *and* there was an infant male child), it would put a totally different complexion on many things. So an investigation was commenced.
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Old 06-22-2019, 04:44 AM
 
20,701 posts, read 13,720,547 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
This is interesting. So, what happened to Marie, after the revolution? She must have emigrated?

Posted this link above: Rescue of the Imperial family from Yalta 1919 - Blog & Alexander Palace Time Machine


Dowager Empress Marie Feodorovna, her daughters Xenia and Olga, their husbands and children, among others were living in German occupied Crimea. The armistice of 1918 between Germany and Russia ended WWI between those to nations. Germany was thus going to evacuate its military from Russian soil, but that would leave the Romanovs without any protection against the advancing Bolshevik military. Every single Romanov soul along with anyone remotely connected with them would surely be massacred on the spot.

Whatever waffling George V did when it came to his cousin "Nicky", he got some balls when it came to his "Aunt Minnie", and wished to rescue her and remaining members of her family.

Warships were dispatched and arrived in Crimea within several days, but there was one huge problem; the dowager empress would not leave Russia.

British warships arrived in Crimean in late November, negotiations at once began with the dowager to get her to evacuate, Her Imperial Majesty would have none of it. Gifts were brought over course of several weeks, more pleading, still nothing.

This went on until April of next year; by that time the situation had grown worse. The French were also evacuating Crimea, and the Bolsheviks were getting much closer. Finally the British commander in charge gathered up the dowager, her family and pretty much said "let's go". I believe this is when the famous words were uttered to the dowager that the Bolsheviks were "going to kill you"...

https://royalmusingsblogspotcom.blog...russia-by.html

George V apparently did not want his cousin Nicholas in his kingdom, but that went for really *all* the Romanovs, especially the Grand Dukes.

Meanwhile in the background various royal courts of Europe were doing what they could behind the scenes to get the czar and his family and or any of the Romanovs out of Russia.

https://www.historyanswers.co.uk/kin...-royal-family/

You can see the reburial of Nicholas II and his family here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oYHKLHGwvA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIuXXR8n9Sc

Reburial of the dowager empress Marie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHWIM_buA8M
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Old 06-22-2019, 07:12 AM
 
Location: Holly Springs, NC
1,288 posts, read 722,177 times
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Due to this thread, I've done some google searches and reading (generally Wikipedia) and find this story both fascinating and frustrating. I stumbled upon the translated version of Nicholas' diary (https://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/vie...84&context=etd) and what stands out the most is the laissez faire attitude of Nicholas II during his confinement. I'd love to read more about the interactions between the new government, guards and Nicholas. Prior to the Bolshevik revolution, but after the 1917 revolution, what was the government's end game with the Imperial family? It seems they wanted to keep him alive but didn't want him living there.

Any suggested reading for this period of time - discussing the original revolution and imprisonment?
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Old 06-22-2019, 09:22 AM
 
11,963 posts, read 5,102,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BugsyPal View Post
Actually read Peter Kurth's book, and it did make a compelling case. But the Romanov family had Anna Anderson run to ground decades before her death. She was Franziska Schanzkowska, a Polish factory worker with a history of mental illness. That it would take the invention and perfection of DNA analysis to later prove this true shows how even back in the day without modern tools or whatever, people could still put two and two together.

The Romanovs, especially dowager empress Marie were suspicious and leery of Anna Anderson and her claims from the start.

For one thing it would confirm what the dowager called "rumors"; that her son and his family were murdered.

Next there was the shame of rape which was very strong at that time.

There had been constant and persistent rumors then and even today that one or more of the grand duchesses had been criminally interfered with by an intimate and violent nature by their jailers. God knows females of the noble, wealthy, land owning classes of all ages were not spared that fate by the Bolsheviks and their followers. Again read the book "Former People" which goes into such things in vivid detail.

That a grand duchess of Russia "gave" herself to some unknown and not named man (or was raped) who then conveniently vanishes was bad enough. But the story got worse with Anna Anderson claiming she gave birth to a child (son) as a result whom she "left behind". This was more than the surviving members of the Romanov family, in particular the dowager empress, could bear.

To have Anna Anderson going around telling her story, and media lapping it up meant the matter had to be sorted. Also if on the off chance there was any truth to a bit of it (Anna Anderson truly being Anastasia, *and* there was an infant male child), it would put a totally different complexion on many things. So an investigation was commenced.
The Anna Anderson story is a fascinating one. Obviously she wasn't who she claimed she was but the mysteries about her are astonishing. For example, how did a poor Polish mentally ill factory worker learn as much as she did regarding personal things about the Romanovs and how on earth did she learn several European languages so well. Supposedly she was just a poor uneducated factory worker. She and the Grand Duchess had the same foot deformity. A hand writing expert said the two had the same script. Her mystery did not die with her death.

Last edited by marino760; 06-22-2019 at 09:40 AM..
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Old 06-22-2019, 02:34 PM
 
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bcgr is correct. Tsar Alexander II, who was Nicholas's grandfather, was assassinated in 1881. Nicholas was 13 at the time. His father, Alexander III then became Tsar. Alexander III reigned until 1894.
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