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Old 06-22-2019, 03:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nearwest View Post
bcgr is correct. Tsar Alexander II, who was Nicholas's grandfather, was assassinated in 1881. Nicholas was 13 at the time. His father, Alexander III then became Tsar. Alexander III reigned until 1894.
Yes, had my "Alexanders" mixed up; but these things happen when royal families would use the same name over and over.
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Old 06-22-2019, 04:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marino760 View Post
The Anna Anderson story is a fascinating one. Obviously she wasn't who she claimed she was but the mysteries about her are astonishing. For example, how did a poor Polish mentally ill factory worker learn as much as she did regarding personal things about the Romanovs and how on earth did she learn several European languages so well. Supposedly she was just a poor uneducated factory worker. She and the Grand Duchess had the same foot deformity. A hand writing expert said the two had the same script. Her mystery did not die with her death.
All sorts of low born women including common prostitutes have been taught, coached and so forth to behave like great ladies. Pygmalion/My Fair Lady is based upon that premise.

As for the rest obviously person or persons fed Anna Anderson information, and or she acquired from various other sources.

Why would anyone do such things? Well it was widely believed Nicholas II had a fortune stashed away outside of Russia (which wasn't true). If a living heir could be produced they would take the lot; and of course be generous to those who helped put that person over.

No one has ever explained why Anna Anderson wouldn't reply, write, or anything else in Russian. IIRC she would mouth a few single words, but couldn't converse, read, nor write in that language.

While Alexandra didn't speak Russian well even by the end of her life, the children were different. They were taught Russian, French, and English. The Romanov children of course knew some German because of their mother, her family and other relations inside the imperial family who were German, but it wasn't their main language. That AA would insist on only speaking German or maybe English struck not only the Romanovs but others as odd.

Languages spoken by Nicholas, Alexandra and Family - The Royal Forums

Anna Anderson claimed it was the trauma of what happened in that cellar which blocked out her Russian language skills. Well if that were true then how much of what else could be trusted to come out of her memory. Indeed whenever AA couldn't recall anything a grand duchess of Russia would certainly know, that was her response. People/faces AA should have known, she didn't. Memories of events only came to her after someone else spoke of them and so forth. https://www.theromanovfamily.com/ann...tery-unsolved/

When Anna Anderson first appeared on scene she claimed she was GD Tatiania; members of Romanov family and or others brought in to "examine" AA dismissed that claim out of hand because AA was "too tall" to be Tatiania. That is when AA switched to Anastasia.

Upon first being fished out of the water and brought to hospital AA was given a complete physical examination. There doctors learned she wasn't a virgin. In attempts to get her to talk/learn identity the doctors suggested contacting her "fiancé". This was a nice way of getting around the fact she wasn't a virtuous woman. This in an era when certainly high born ladies were usually virgins until they married.

AA had to think quickly to explain her non-virginal status, thus came the whole story about the officer/solider (whose name she couldn't or wouldn't remember) who rescued her, then lay with "Anastasia" either at her consent or not. Again as in above post this was something of an anathema to the
Romanovs.

Uneducated only means someone hasn't had formal higher (or maybe below that level) education. It does *NOT* automatically translate into someone being ignorant and or possessing a low level of intelligence.
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Old 06-23-2019, 11:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by BugsyPal View Post
As have said Nicholas II should have learned from his father's assassination, and reflected upon the causes for so much hate. But no, the new czar doubled down on bad policies that ultimately lead him and his family down that staircase into a cellar to be murdered.
Well said.

Nicolas II was a prime example of the risks of rule by first born. Eventually, when the times demand excellence, the pre determined ruler delivers copious quantities of mediocrity. I don't think Nicolas II was fully conscious of the bad policies he was implementing. He was not willfully cruel- if anything his advisors said he was too lenient in commuting the death sentences of red revolutionary.

Rather, he was a lethal mix of limited intellectual abilities combined with no personal charisma and a quiet love of imperial bling. Even the lack of personal charisma was not centered on negative qualities. If anything, Nicolas II and his wife were both shy and withdrawn by nature.

Nicolas just had a firm and undying belief that "da system" would self perpetuate itself because it was inherently part of Russia and Russia would, of course, self perpetuate. As Russia was holy, "da system" was also holy- and in the case of Holy Mother Russia- extremely holy.

Nicolas II was not alone in this belief. Chinese emperors of his era had the same belief that China and by extension, their system were holy and did not need even modest reforms. Of course, being Confucian / Buddhist, they had a different concept of "holy", than Nicholas, but the belief was clearly there. Likewise, traditionalist German, Austro Hungarian, British, Spanish monarchists also shared this belief about holy systems. These nations, however, dodged the bullet by getting lucky with rulers with enough intellectual abilities at the right time to know when to initiate at least modest reforms.

In other times, the Russian system could survive such mediocre leadership and had done so many times before. But, as you said, these were not ordinary times.

Last edited by Cryptic; 06-23-2019 at 11:27 AM..
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Old 06-23-2019, 01:03 PM
 
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I always wondered if there has ever been any talk of restoring the monarchy, just as figure heads in a way to promote tourism and bring tourist money into Russia and keep some centuries old traditions alive. There are descendants, many of them to the Romanov dynasty. It works well for the British and some other European countries, not to mention the British royal family is still related to the Romanovs.
Putin seems to be friendly and respectful towards the former royals and everything is still there including the palaces and crown jewels. Only the people are missing, LOL.

Did a little research and it looks like there is talk of restoring the monarchy with Puntin's blessings. I found several articles about it. This is just one. For this to happen though all the stars need to be aligned together, not likely to happen anytime soon.
http://www.theroyalforums.com/10197-...chy-in-russia/

Last edited by marino760; 06-23-2019 at 01:23 PM..
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Old 06-23-2019, 01:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marino760 View Post
Did a little research and it looks like there is talk of restoring the monarchy with Puntin's blessings. I found several articles about it. This is just one. For this to happen though all the stars need to be aligned together, not likely to happen anytime soon.
Is the Kremlin planning to restore the Monarchy in Russia? | The Royal Forums
With all the direct heirs murdered with the Czar, I wonder what indirect descendants they would consider?

To lessen the chance of a dud even in a constitutional monarchy, maybe the Russians could model after the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth of olde. The monarch is chosen from a restricted group, then elected by parliament.
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Old 06-23-2019, 02:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
With all the direct heirs murdered with the Czar, I wonder what indirect descendants they would consider?

To lessen the chance of a dud even in a constitutional monarchy, maybe the Russians could model after the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth of olde. The monarch is chosen from a restricted group, then elected by parliament.
The Czar had siblings so the lineage wouldn't change from his father down like happened in England when Edward the VIII abdicated. The direct lineage continued and was still intact through another sibling.

Last edited by marino760; 06-23-2019 at 02:36 PM..
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Old 06-23-2019, 02:19 PM
 
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This topic has piqued my interest in the Russian royal family. On Youtube, I watched the 1956 film "Anastasia". This film was loosely based on the claims of Anna Anderson to be Tsar Nicholas II youngest daughter.


It's fictionalized entertainment, as the Dowager Empress Marie (Nicholas's mother) never met Ms. Anderson, or any other persons claiming to be her murdered grandchildren.


"Anastasia" was the return of Ingrid Bergman to appearing in American films. She won the Academy Award for Best Actress for her performance in this film.
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Old 06-23-2019, 05:36 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nearwest View Post
This topic has piqued my interest in the Russian royal family. On Youtube, I watched the 1956 film "Anastasia". This film was loosely based on the claims of Anna Anderson to be Tsar Nicholas II youngest daughter.


It's fictionalized entertainment, as the Dowager Empress Marie (Nicholas's mother) never met Ms. Anderson, or any other persons claiming to be her murdered grandchildren.


"Anastasia" was the return of Ingrid Bergman to appearing in American films. She won the Academy Award for Best Actress for her performance in this film.
Another person who claimed to be the Grand Duchess is a South African woman of Russian decent. There is no official record of her birth nor death or how she came to South Africa. She never told anyone except her grandchildren about this. She was terrified of being kidnapped or assassinated by the KGB and supposedly wanted nothing to do with any of it. She died in 1968.
Her children and grandchildren are not hers biologically. Supposedly, when the royal family was murdered, she was presumed dead but survived and was secretly transported to Poland where she recovered from her wounds and then went to Germany where a member of the German Royal family, long since dead, helped to get to South Africa. She told her grandkids the story of how her family was killed, put in a truck and taken out in the woods to be burned and buried. This is before the Russian authorities made this information public.

She never claimed to be Anastasia, just the Grand Duchess. Photo analysis of her early photos as a young women and those of Grand Duchess Maria (Anastasia's sister) as well as reconstructing of what is thought to be her skull are a very close to a perfect match for Maria. DNA analysis could not be done conclusively because of contamination of the bones.
After Russian authorities found the remains of the Royal family in the 1990s, they concluded Anastasia's remains where there but Maria's were not.
I'm probably not telling the whole story correctly, but it's quite interesting. There is a documentary about this, but I don't remember the name of it.

Last edited by marino760; 06-23-2019 at 05:57 PM..
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Old 06-23-2019, 06:26 PM
 
20,701 posts, read 13,720,547 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marino760 View Post
I always wondered if there has ever been any talk of restoring the monarchy, just as figure heads in a way to promote tourism and bring tourist money into Russia and keep some centuries old traditions alive. There are descendants, many of them to the Romanov dynasty. It works well for the British and some other European countries, not to mention the British royal family is still related to the Romanovs.
Putin seems to be friendly and respectful towards the former royals and everything is still there including the palaces and crown jewels. Only the people are missing, LOL.

Did a little research and it looks like there is talk of restoring the monarchy with Puntin's blessings. I found several articles about it. This is just one. For this to happen though all the stars need to be aligned together, not likely to happen anytime soon.
Is the Kremlin planning to restore the Monarchy in Russia? | The Royal Forums
Restoration of a monarchy in Russia in particular the Romanovs would prove difficult on several fronts.

First and foremost due to Salic law and imperial family house rules finding someone who could legitimately claim the throne would prove difficult to tricky.

Pauline Laws (named for Paul I, heir to Catherine the Great) changed succession forbidding females from inheriting the throne unless there is absolutely no other choice. This is why Alexandra (and to an extent Nicholas) were so worried that the czarina only manged to produce four girls at first. If Nicholas II died without a male heir the throne would go to next male in line. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Laws

Also unlike GB and some other thrones succession to throne of imperial Russia happened at once, soon as czar died, the next in line inherited. Other places like GB if the queen consort is with child things are put on hold until the birth, and at that event the infant inherits/ is the new monarch.

During one of her pregnancies Alexandra asked one of the female Romanovs in same room with her who became czar if Nicholas died before she gave birth. The woman responded "whoever is next in line" or words to that effect.

Other issue is that Romanov house rules forbade members of that family from making unequal (morganic) marriages. Members of the Romanov family who married commoners were chucked out of the family and more to the point both themselves and any heirs removed from the succession. For imperial Russia commoners where just that, anyone who was not imperial or royal. That is a family/person who currently reigned over a territory or did so in past. This included what passed for nobility in Russia, all those princes, and princesses who had titles but weren't members of a royal or imperial family.

This explains why so many consorts for Russian czars came from Germany, Scandinavia and so forth. It didn't matter if the monarch or royal family were dirt poor, it was their bloodlines that counted.

Because Lenin and his henchmen did such an effective job killing not just the czar and his son, but many male members of the Romanov family finding someone who could legally be called "Czar" is difficult. Worse over the decades since the Russian Revolution many members of the Romanov family (like royalty all over Europe) married commoners, thus again under the old house rules they and their heirs are disqualified from inheriting.

Ironically the male members of Romanov family who survived the revolution were usually the ones who were exiled out of Russia by Nicholas II for marrying commoners.

What If there was a legit heir to the Russian throne? |

https://www.nobility-royalty.com/id99.htm

Could Putin really be planning to play General Franco? Who knows, but given the man's current popularity slide, and his being soon term limited out of office (no one expects Putin go to quietly or easily) anything is possible in theory. Putin's plan to restore the Romanovs / OrthoChristian.Com
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Old 06-23-2019, 06:33 PM
 
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Many of those with strongest claims to Russian imperial throne are heirs of Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_...vich_of_Russia

The Romanoff family association has an exhaustive list of who is who in that family.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romano...ly_Association
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