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Old Today, 02:32 PM
 
12,257 posts, read 18,390,529 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFresno View Post
The real war was on the Eastern Front between the Nazis and Soviets. Whatever was happening on the Western Front was nothing more then a sideshow.
That is true indeed but it's something that has been rehashed repeatedly in this forum.

But let's look at the pacific theater contributions/casualties, something that is often not discussed:



Interesting again - China took the most casualties, mostly even before the official commencement of WW2 but their main strategic contribution seems to be solely in tying up a number of Japanese land forces rather than any campaign victories that changed the course of that theater of operations. Of course the Chinese civilians, as well as most of Japanese occupied Asia, also took as much abuse and suffering from the IJA as the Nazi's inflicted upon Europe, maybe more.

From the Allied side it was otherwise the US that suffered the most losses although these might include Philipino soldiers. England - minimal, although I think India is ripped off once again as they fought in Burma and a number of British pacific colonies and once again ended up falling into the UK ledger. Russia didn't even register, coming in so late to that theater as to have minimal impact except for Japan to assign some token divisions for that time when Russia would join (which they later did as an obvious land grab on no benefit to anyone except themselves).

 
Old Today, 02:55 PM
 
28 posts, read 3,836 times
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Default Undeclared Naval War in the Atlantic


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkAr...IFlxRIFBRV6VXQ

According to the above video, the four US destroyers listed below were all involved in an undeclared naval war in the Atlantic that took place during 1941, before Pearl Harbor.

1) USS Niblack (date of action: April 10, 1941): Niblack made a depth charge attack on a sound contact. According to the action report, a sub had been rapidly approaching a position for attack.

2) USS Greer (date of action: September 4, 1941): Greer pursued a U-boat for nearly three hours. Then, depending who is correct, either a) Greer made a depth charge attack on U-652, after which U-652 made a torpedo attack that failed; or, b) the U-boat made the failed torpedo attack first, followed by the destroyer’s depth charge attack.

3) USS Kearny (date of action: October 17, 1941): after being notified of a submarine attack on a convoy, Kearny left Reykjavik harbor to attack the submarines, but it was hit amidships by a torpedo from U-658. Kearny’s crew were able to save the ship and withdraw, but 11 crewmen had been killed and another 22 had been wounded.

4) USS Reuben James (date of action: October 31, 1941): the Reuben James moved to put itself between its convoy and a submarine contact, but the destroyer was struck by a torpedo that may have been intended for the convoy. The torpedo ignited the forward magazine, and the ship was split in two. Both parts of the ship sank, with the loss of 100 crewmen killed, including all the officers.
 
Old Today, 02:58 PM
 
12,257 posts, read 18,390,529 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
At the time of the transfer of the RAF men to the USAAF, the USA front line fighters were no match for a FW or 109, the Spitfires were more than a match.

The USA went over with P40s and P39s in 1942, the British told them not to use them against the Germans offering them Spitfires and pilots. They wisely took them.

You need to read about the Spitfire which went up to Mk 14. It was improved all along, even being fitted with the more powerful RR Merlin replacement the RR Griffon, being a formidable plane all through WW2, as Japanese Zero pilots found out in 1945
I know about Spits. They had their purpose in air to air combat. But as I said they had a limited use because of the limited range and were somewhat undergunned. What good are fighters that only had a range over UK when the air war was over Germany? The USA didn't "wisely" use spitfires, that categoration is misleading. They simply performed a stop-gap role in some zones as a point-use defensive intercepter. Americans didn't really have any other fighters fit for the role rolling off the assembly line at the time. Once the war turned to offense, they became somewhat obsolete. But hey, they did great in a later role of photo reconnasaince. Thanks for the flying camera.

I really enjoy your british bias, I think I mentioned one time as similiar the Checkov's role in Star Trek claiming everything in the universe is a "Wussian Inwention". But A Japanese Zero could outturn a Spit, and thus allied fighters lost badly to the Japanese in dogfights until pilots learned to use the speed advantage of a Spitfire. But, regardless, they were never a major contributer in the pacific theater due to the same limitations in range experienced in the ETO.

Last edited by Dd714; Today at 03:06 PM..
 
Old Today, 03:08 PM
 
Location: London
4,360 posts, read 3,647,052 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TedF0ster View Post
According to the above video, the four US destroyers listed below were all involved in an undeclared naval war in the Atlantic
The US was not at war. The ships were for convoy protection only.
 
Old Today, 03:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
The US was not at war. The ships were for convoy protection only.
US ships were getting shot at, and the Navy was taking casualties; in the case of the Reuben James, 70% of the crew were KIA. We were at war.
 
Old Today, 03:18 PM
 
Location: London
4,360 posts, read 3,647,052 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
I know about Spits. They had their purpose in air to air combat. But as I said they had a limited use because of the limited range and were somewhat undergunned. What good are fighters that only had a range over UK when the air war was over Germany?
The Spitfire had an operational radius of over 400 miles, far more in recon versions. It operated over France from England. For longer trips the British commissioned a plane to be built to do that, the Mustang. The Spitfire went to a Mk 24 version in 1946, so much for your false assumption of it being obsolete. It went right through WW2 always being a front line fighter, being a match for all enemy planes. The RR Griffon version went to 400mph in level flight in early 1942.

The Spitfire was faster than the Zero also being superior at lower altitudes. The Zero was a formidable plane, yet a plane that was 11 years old from its first flight was a match to it. So much for your allegations the Spitfire was obsolete. It it was obsolete it would not have been improved after WW2, it would have been dropped like many other planes as jets were flying. The replacement was the Spiteful, but dropped because jets were the future. The Spitfire in the Pacific was to operate closer to the mother carrier or fleet - give a CAP.

I do not have British bias, I put the other factual angle, not the mythical one.

Last edited by John-UK; Today at 04:19 PM..
 
Old Today, 03:22 PM
 
Location: London
4,360 posts, read 3,647,052 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TedF0ster View Post
US ships were getting shot at, and the Navy was taking casualties; in the case of the Reuben James, 70% of the crew were KIA. We were at war.
The USA was not at war, to suggest so is highly misleading. The ships were defending convoys, if they were attacked by mistake by the Germans. The Germans were not supposed to attack neutral ships.
 
Old Today, 04:10 PM
 
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Default US Army Fighter Pilots Get Airborne During Pearl Harbor Attack

I firmly disagree, but I'll move on to something else to redirect my thinking.

Two of above men were Lt.'s George Welch and Kenneth Taylor, who both flew the P-40 Warhawk. Some of the pilots referred to in the quote below could have been Navy pilots.

Quote:
According to the 25th Infantry Division's Tropic Lightning Museum, 14 different American pilots were able to take off during the surprise attack and record 10 Japanese aircraft kills. Air Corps records credit Welch with four kills and Taylor with two, yet new research of Japanese combat reports confirms Taylor got four kills (when the two probable kills are included). Taylor claimed in an interview: "I know for certain I shot down two planes or perhaps more; I don't know." On the 13th anniversary of the Pearl Harbor attack, the United States Air Force stated that they could not determine which of the two pilots shot down the first Japanese bomber: "Each of them in his first attack shot down an enemy bomber, so the difference in time would have been but a few seconds in any case." While in the air during the dogfight, the two pilots agreed that whoever survived the battle would claim credit to the title for the first kill. However, both pilots survived and because Welch outranked Taylor (he was a 41A, Taylor a 41C) and was the lead aircraft in the fight, he was credited with the first kill. The efforts of the two pilots' dogfights were able to divert the Japanese from destroying the Haleiwa air field, which the Japanese intelligence did not know about prior to the attack.
from the Wiki article about Lt. Taylor:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennet...r#Pearl_Harbor
 
Old Today, 04:13 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
7,131 posts, read 9,898,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John-UK View Post
The USA was not at war, to suggest so is highly misleading. The ships were defending convoys, if they were attacked by mistake by the Germans. The Germans were not supposed to attack neutral ships.
"The ships were defending convoys".

Just whose convoys do you think the Americans were defending? And that sounds neutral to you?

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...aval-war-53377
 
Old Today, 04:14 PM
 
Location: London
4,360 posts, read 3,647,052 times
Reputation: 1982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
India is ripped off once again as they fought in Burma
How was India ripped off attacking Japanese in the country next door? Don't bother. FYI, India was a part of the British Empire.

The US lost far too many men by poor generalship. Casualties were 50,000 at Lorraine, 33,000 at Hurtgen Forest, 95,000 at the Bulge, 5,000 at Aachen, 21,000 US & French at the Colmar Pocket, etc. The British and Canadians invented the armoured personnel carrier in WW2 to avoid excessive infantry casualties, called the Kangaroo. It was a converted Churchill tank with the innards and turret stripped away. They also later converted US made chassis' for this function. Despite being a huge success, US forces strangely never adopted Armoured Personnel Carriers in WW2 continuing to sustain heavy losses.



Ram Kangaroo:
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