U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: What Do You Believe Are the World's Most Negative Events?
The Russian Revolution of 1917 and in Particular the October Revolution 12 38.71%
The French Revolution 1 3.23%
Hitler's Accession to Power in 1933 17 54.84%
The American Revolution 1 3.23%
England's Glorious Revolution of 1689 0 0%
September 11, 2001 4 12.90%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-06-2019, 12:12 PM
 
238 posts, read 41,176 times
Reputation: 262

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
However, some things stood out to me about Stalin. He grew in a small village in Georgia (a province of Russia) and lead what to most of us would seem a very brutal childhood. One of the activities that people in the village engaged in was going out into the streets after dark and just randomly slugging, hitting, and beating others. I gather it was done quite voluntarily and was perceived by the people there as a way "to pass the time".
Yeah, that's a crazy custom that I never understood. It is an ancient one, going back as far as 9th century, widespread all over Russia. Although, there were "rules of engagement". For example, all weapons (including sticks) were prohibited; if one was to bring anything other than his fists he would be punished by both sides. If person falls down, it was prohibited to continue to punch him; etc. I would say we can view it as "mass boxing" sports event So, nothing outstanding. But, it's still crazy
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-06-2019, 12:44 PM
 
238 posts, read 41,176 times
Reputation: 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcgr View Post
And the fact that the Bolsheviks were victorious is to me proof of their capability. Where were the Bolsheviks at the beginning of 1917? They were a fringe socialist party whose leadership were all in exile or prison, by the end of the year they toppled the government and were ruling many if not most Russian cities and large sections of the countryside, and ended up winning the civil war and repulsing many invasions (chiefly Poland). They could not have done this without large genuine support among the lower peasantry, urban workers, and common soldiers. The Bolsheviks promised peace, land, and bread and delivered where others did not.
Well, to be fair, it was a big coalition of multiple socialist and even anarchist parties, but yes, Bolsheviks were the most organized and determined.

The biggest problem with initial Bolsheviks state was that they had no clue how economy works. They were under illusion that once factories and other production property will be transferred to those who work on them, things will magically change and start work all by themselves. They learned that was not the case. That's why they had to implement NEP in early years of their ruling, that was run till 1928.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-06-2019, 02:06 PM
 
15,781 posts, read 13,682,184 times
Reputation: 21711
Essad Bey is a discredited writer, none of his works are considered factual.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-06-2019, 03:03 PM
 
890 posts, read 200,156 times
Reputation: 3063
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
Essad Bey is a discredited writer, none of his works are considered factual.
Beyond that, in 1931 it wasn't even possible to write much of substance on the life of Stalin. Almost all of the primary sources were in the USSR itself, and the only histories available were thin sketches produced for propaganda purposes, which only happened at the direction of Stalin himself, who always reviewed and edited such things prior to publication - which he sometimes quashed. In the 1930s there were no full-length Russian language bios of Stalin available, even in the Soviet Union. Stalin preferred a mostly-opaque personal history for public consumption.

A publication such as Bey's would only be useful as an artifact of the times, specifically of the perspectives of monarchists, anti-Westerners, and Islamophiles of the era (Bey being all of those).

An infinitely better source for actual information about Stalin and his career up through his first few years in power would be Stephen Kotkin's Stalin, Volume One: 1878-1928.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-06-2019, 07:24 PM
 
Location: New York Area
16,160 posts, read 6,376,266 times
Reputation: 12513
Quote:
Originally Posted by kanonka View Post
Well, to be fair, it was a big coalition of multiple socialist and even anarchist parties, but yes, Bolsheviks were the most organized and determined.

The biggest problem with initial Bolsheviks state was that they had no clue how economy works. They were under illusion that once factories and other production property will be transferred to those who work on them, things will magically change and start work all by themselves. They learned that was not the case. That's why they had to implement NEP in early years of their ruling, that was run till 1928.
The policy was the mad product of intellectuals. Stalin didn't even understand socialism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2x3x29x41 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
Essad Bey is a discredited writer, none of his works are considered factual.
Beyond that, in 1931 it wasn't even possible to write much of substance on the life of Stalin. Almost all of the primary sources were in the USSR itself, and the only histories available were thin sketches produced for propaganda purposes, which only happened at the direction of Stalin himself, who always reviewed and edited such things prior to publication - which he sometimes quashed. In the 1930s there were no full-length Russian language bios of Stalin available, even in the Soviet Union. Stalin preferred a mostly-opaque personal history for public consumption.

A publication such as Bey's would only be useful as an artifact of the times, specifically of the perspectives of monarchists, anti-Westerners, and Islamophiles of the era (Bey being all of those).

An infinitely better source for actual information about Stalin and his career up through his first few years in power would be Stephen Kotkin's Stalin, Volume One: 1878-1928.
Essad Bey had sources in Azerbaijan and Georgia, as well as in Berlin. I don't know your authority that he is "discredited." Other than that Essad Bey a/k/a Lev Nussenbaum roundly disliked him for his cruel policies. If the world had known of and acted on his cruelty the world would be an infinitely better place. Despite his faux identity change Essad Bey was hardly an Islamopohile. Have you read either The Orientalist or any of his books? I doubt seriously that you have.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-06-2019, 08:36 PM
 
238 posts, read 41,176 times
Reputation: 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
The policy was the mad product of intellectuals.
Huh? Do you actually know what NEP was?
To put it short it was sort-of regulated capitalism for small entities. I.e. what we know here in US as "small business".

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Stalin didn't even understand socialism.
Wow. Did you ever actually read anything about SU economy during Stalin times? If it was ever anything close to real socialism it was during his rule. The only difference with capitalism was that means of production were actually in hands of those who worked and financial system was two-level. Everything else - including fierce competition (yeah, surprised?) was just like in capitalist system. It was Khrushchev who changed everything - including converting economy to a "state-owns-all", and that's when downfall of SU started.

Last edited by kanonka; 08-06-2019 at 08:44 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-07-2019, 11:07 AM
 
15,781 posts, read 13,682,184 times
Reputation: 21711
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
The policy was the mad product of intellectuals. Stalin didn't even understand socialism.

Essad Bey had sources in Azerbaijan and Georgia, as well as in Berlin. I don't know your authority that he is "discredited." Other than that Essad Bey a/k/a Lev Nussenbaum roundly disliked him for his cruel policies. If the world had known of and acted on his cruelty the world would be an infinitely better place. Despite his faux identity change Essad Bey was hardly an Islamopohile. Have you read either The Orientalist or any of his books? I doubt seriously that you have.
You are not understanding this. He is a phony, his books are not factually correct. This is a view held by all literary critics and historians.

And no, I do not read incorrect facts masquerading as facts, so I have not read his books and do not care to as they are BS.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-07-2019, 01:46 PM
 
Location: San Diego CA
4,951 posts, read 3,436,047 times
Reputation: 7957
Lots of world salad in these posts. World history is more often that not a random pattern of sometimes violent and at other time peaceful events that deeply alter our lives on a global scale. Being in the wrong place at the right time is a universal truth.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-07-2019, 01:53 PM
 
Location: New York Area
16,160 posts, read 6,376,266 times
Reputation: 12513
Quote:
Originally Posted by kanonka View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
He grew in a small village in Georgia (a province of Russia) and lead what to most of us would seem a very brutal childhood. One of the activities that people in the village engaged in was going out into the streets after dark and just randomly slugging, hitting, and beating others. I gather it was done quite voluntarily and was perceived by the people there as a way "to pass the time". Stalin later robbed banks and committed all manner of crimes during the revolutionary period in Russia.
Yeah, that's a crazy custom that I never understood. It is an ancient one, going back as far as 9th century, widespread all over Russia. Although, there were "rules of engagement". For example, all weapons (including sticks) were prohibited; if one was to bring anything other than his fists he would be punished by both sides. If person falls down, it was prohibited to continue to punch him; etc. I would say we can view it as "mass boxing" sports event So, nothing outstanding. But, it's still crazy
The prevalence of that kind of "recreation" may be one reason why Russia seems impervious to real economic growth and unable to nurture democratic or liberal forms of government. Pull of the restraints and all hall breaks loose.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-07-2019, 01:57 PM
 
5,584 posts, read 2,373,180 times
Reputation: 16683
Quote:
Originally Posted by msgsing View Post
Lots of world salad in these posts. World history is more often that not a random pattern of sometimes violent and at other time peaceful events that deeply alter our lives on a global scale. Being in the wrong place at the right time is a universal truth.

What does that even mean? The events discussed on this thread had ramifications, with one event leading to other events. Random is a supervolcano erupting. But to describe political and economic events as just occurring randomly without connection to those things that have gone before is just, well, I can't even think of an adequate way to describe it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top