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Old 08-07-2019, 07:06 PM
 
Location: Raleigh
8,051 posts, read 5,948,013 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman57 View Post
<>We just wanted to develop a atomic advantage over Russia...that sure didn't work out.
Oh? We won.
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Old Yesterday, 05:28 AM
 
Location: western East Roman Empire
6,685 posts, read 10,734,655 times
Reputation: 5917
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2x3x29x41 View Post

Both are examples of historical revisionism who work to impede the actual discussion of history.
The world is full of political theater, including this "history" forum.
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Old Yesterday, 06:26 AM
 
Location: Minnysoda
8,664 posts, read 8,572,661 times
Reputation: 5205
Tough crap...Sew the wind reap the whirlwind...... I don't hear you crying about the firebombing missions on Tokyo look up Operation Meetinghouse.... Bomber Command burned up Tokyo, Osaka, Nagoya, Yokohama, Kobe, and Kawasaki, "over 126,762 people were killed . SO whats better do it slow or all at once????
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Old Yesterday, 08:10 AM
 
52,279 posts, read 42,045,329 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Mitch View Post
Read Paul Fussel's "Thank God for the Atomic Bomb" (it's short and easy to find online) and you will learn that the Japanese had concrete plans to fight to the last man. Apparently the atomic bombings changed those plans.
What people often forget is that a month or so before the atomic bombings Russia having defeated Germany moved massive combat hardened units to the east and declared war on Japan.

The Manchurian army at that time still had a million or so men and Japan was still thinking they had some bargaining room.

Russia cut through them like a hot knife through butter and the extremely rapid loss of that army and territory is often grossly overlooked in the shadow of the A-bombs but most historians agree that it may have been just as important in forcing Japans surrender.

The occasional appearance of people like OP's to this forum that know absolutely nothing about that conflict other than the bare basics and um...2 nukes...are hopefully getting the education they should have had before starting the thread. Unfortunately, a youtube video makes them a 5 minute expert and they lack the attention span to dig further.
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Old Yesterday, 08:16 AM
 
52,279 posts, read 42,045,329 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
Tough crap...Sew the wind reap the whirlwind...... I don't hear you crying about the firebombing missions on Tokyo look up Operation Meetinghouse.... Bomber Command burned up Tokyo, Osaka, Nagoya, Yokohama, Kobe, and Kawasaki, "over 126,762 people were killed . SO whats better do it slow or all at once????
Yeah and considering that Japans occupation forces across the far east (especially China, Korea) were killing about 100k civilians a month for over a decade.

My Chinese friend gets more than a little annoyed when people start crying about Japan getting nuked because they were old enough to hear the stories from their parents and other relatives about a decade worth of oppression and killings.

I'll say it, Japan got of light at the end of the war and there is a reason their neighbors still harbor hard feelings towards them.
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Old Yesterday, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Upstate
5,811 posts, read 6,615,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
I'll say it, Japan got of light at the end of the war and there is a reason their neighbors still harbor hard feelings towards them.
Japan did get off light. Not only did the nukes stop the US from invading in the south, possibly leading to the deaths of hundreds of thousands (millions?) of civilians, the Russians would have moved in from the north like you mentioned.

Eventually after the blood bath was over, Japan would have been defeated and in ruins. The Emperor most likely dead or in prison and what was left of the islands of Japan would have been shared between Russia and the US, much like Germany was divided up until the end of the cold war.

Japan, today is a thriving nation thanks mostly to the US. We did not conquer the nation, but helped them rebuild. Japan would have been a much different country today had it not been for what happened.
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Old Yesterday, 10:14 AM
 
12,435 posts, read 18,521,658 times
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Well this thread, rightfully so, really backfired for the OP. He seems to have bailed out of the discussion although I know he has been online and is reading this. Watchman57 I hope you are reading the responses and learning some history, maybe he will come back and say "you know guys, I didn't realize the context and all the details, thanks for filling me in" but I doubt it.

OP also rather than celebrating the 'birth of nuclear war" why don't you wait a few more days and celebrate VJ day - Victory in Japan and the end of a terrible war that caused the deaths of 80 million humans. You know how it was celebrated in 1945? - American GI's in Germany celebrated in the knowledge that they wouldn't be transferred to the Pacific front and once again into combat, Chinese according to one account "buried Americans with gratitude", in the Philipines capital the citizens took to the streets and sang "God Bless America", Australians danced in the streets, in Korea who had been under Japanese rule for decades they celbrated (and still do) their independence. All over the world this occurred. In the US the celebration was so rambunctious that it turned into drunken riots in some cities. And the loser? Japan "celebrated" by murdering 200 american POWs. Such was our enemy.

The point to the above - celebrate and commemorate the proper event. Not the use of a terrible weapon justifiably used to end a terrible war, but the end of that terrible war itself. Many of the countries still celebrate VJ day in many forms - In Korea it's celebrated annually as "the day the light returned". I think that is an appropriate description.
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Old Yesterday, 10:21 AM
 
Location: New Mexico
6,790 posts, read 3,758,060 times
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The final days of WW2 were a confusing mess. The war would have eventually been won in Japan in the next six to twelve months without the bomb, probably, but the Allies had the weapon and figured it would convince them to think rationally and accept surrender. The Allies were facing the task of policing and managing the devastated populations in Europe where starvation and civil hostilities were already breaking out with little civil authority. The Soviets were looting and carrying off just about everything they could haul away and were expelling whole populations from their former homes. There was also the possible task of moving thousands of Allied troops from Europe to Asia to invade Japan. The resulting devastation and casualties from a prolonged war in Japan would likely make Europe look like a rose garden.

The Japanese public was largely unaware of the Hiroshima bombing, as odd as that may seem, and there was no immediate interest in unconditional surrender. Japan had been exploring a way to end the war on its negotiated terms working through the Soviets but that fell apart. The Soviets were preparing to declare war on Japan (as per the Yalta agreement) and waited until August 9 and staged a surprise invasion of Manchuria (same day as the Nagasaki bombing). There was a huge daylight firebombing raid on Japanese cities on August 14th (destroying the last oil refinery) and the government believed the Americans had a stockpile of A-bombs ready to use on more cities. A large part of the Japanese army was stranded on Pacific islands and home island defenses were deemed ineffective. After debate and deadlock, the Empororer finally came down on the side of surrender but an unsuccessful military coup attempt by hardliners and a couple of assassinations (in favor of continuing the war) took place at the same time resulting in even more confusion. The Emperor's formal surrender acceptance speech never mentioned surrender, used odd archaic language and was confusing since the military and public had no real concept of unconditional surrender terms. The fighting in Manchuria continued for another week as the Soviets moved into Korea. The Soviets would possibly have beat the Americans to a full-scale invasion of the home islands without the two bombs.
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Old Yesterday, 10:32 AM
 
12,435 posts, read 18,521,658 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SunGrins View Post
...A large part of the Japanese army was stranded on Pacific islands and home island defenses were deemed ineffective. ... The Soviets would possibly have beat the Americans to a full-scale invasion of the home islands without the two bombs....
Interesting point of discussion here:
1.) Japan home island defenses in no way were ineffective. They still had a sizable force of military in Japan, and the island geography, being mountanous, made it easy to defend as they did in Okinowa. They also had a sizable force of suicide craft to use on allied shipping as well as a motivated civilians population to throw away needlessly on suicide attacks.
2.) Can you give more information on Soviet plans to invade the island? The soviets really were after an easy land grab in Manchuria but I can't see how they would have had the logistics for an invasion on the Japanese home island. That would have taken years of planning, a sizeable navy and air support in the Pacific theater, landing craft, etc. I don't see it as possible in any scenario. The other allies were already in the planning phase to the literal extent of getting 100's of thousands of body bags ordered.
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Old Yesterday, 12:56 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
6,790 posts, read 3,758,060 times
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The Japanese didn’t want enemy troops on the beaches - period - and realized they probably couldn’t stop a troop landing. They could have retreated into the mountains and fought on until they were starved out. The Soviets were on Sakhalin Island and had their eyes on grabbing Hokkaido, about thirty miles across the strait. That probably would have been very ugly and the war ended within days so nothing came of it (Truman warned Stalin off). I don’t think Honshu was something they were interested in. They made a rapid advance through Manchuria against supposedly tough Japanese forces and just sidestepped some strongholds in favor of moving deeper into the country (low hanging fruit approach). The timeline on Soviet plans to invade Hokkaido can be found at ... https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter....:%223395%22%7d
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