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Old 08-30-2019, 12:08 PM
 
Location: Mars City
5,215 posts, read 2,233,332 times
Reputation: 7645

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It's easy to throw around convenient self-made truths about slavery, since we are so detached from it. But none of us here know what slaves truly went through, though we speak with confidence as though we know it all.

I've read my share of books about the subject, including from northern and southern perspectives. That helps, but will still be no match for tangible knowledge and experience.

In the end though, the writings of the founding fathers about freedom and liberty finally aligned with what we objectively learned about the races (after many years of assumption and racism). When it all clicked and came together, we could no longer continue on in the same manner as before. Nothing has changed, except a perverse desire to be willfully ignorant of the progress and evolution of this subject. Many are still stuck in the past, on the other side of the turning point.

Last edited by Thoreau424; 08-30-2019 at 12:17 PM..
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Old 08-30-2019, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
41,976 posts, read 18,803,274 times
Reputation: 18939
Quote:
Originally Posted by finalmove View Post
Dude, read some history. European merchants needed labor and fast! They found it cheap with Blacks offered for sale by Blacks on the way to the Indies. Goodness, it was certainly a different era!

Blacks were always popular as slaves because they were sturdily built and would be immediately identifiable as an escapee solely on their color. Granted, that was harsh, and was outlawed sooner than many other Nations.

The recent infatuation the Left has with American slavery is cause for suspicion.

Any thoughts?
Yes, your response fails to address the question I posed. Can you provide another example of race based slavery, one where the enslavement was justified by a theory of the inherent inferiority of the humans being enslaved?

Again, is attitude all you have in the way of ammunition? Instead of "Dude, read some history", please provide us with the specific history you wish me to read which answers my question.
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Old 08-30-2019, 12:32 PM
Status: "Proud American, Always and Forever" (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: DMV Area/NYC/Honolulu
12,829 posts, read 6,599,282 times
Reputation: 12361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Why would Andrew Jackson not be considered "villainous" just because the Cherokees took slaves with them to Oklahoma? Jackson defied federal law as laid down by the Supreme Court, when he used his power as Commander-In-Chief of the army to round up the Cherokees and force them off their land. This provoked the first Constitutional crisis in the short history of the young nation.

I fail to see how anyone could have been "shipped en masse... in boats" to landlocked Oklahoma, but maybe it's just me....

White slaveholders didn't covet Cherokee land because they wanted to spread the "plantation economy". It was mostly poor whites who encroached on Cherokee land, as the wealthy slaveowning whites were already sitting pretty on their own estates. Furthermore, what doomed the Cherokees was the discovery of gold on their land. There was a gold rush, that for some reason is never mentioned in most history books.

Something is awry at the Smithsonian NMAI. Unbelievably sloppy research, or odd selection criteria for the "information" (TM) presented in the exhibit.
I think it complicates things, though, to call someone "villainous" if you were behaving "villainous" yourself, and during the same period to boot.

I'd imagine that slaveholders coveted the lands of the so-called Five Civilized Tribes at least, in part, because they wanted to spread a "plantation economy?" After all, the territories of the tribes took up most of the current boundaries of Mississippi, as well as healthy chunks of the current boundaries of Alabama, Georgia, and Florida (with a slither of NC).

As for shipping en masse, I'd wager that this referring to river shipping, not ocean shipping, and, of course, not along the entire journey, but only where practical.
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Old 08-30-2019, 12:35 PM
Status: "Proud American, Always and Forever" (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: DMV Area/NYC/Honolulu
12,829 posts, read 6,599,282 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
We know about how slavery was widespread in its practice over the course of history. What was unique about slavery in the American south was that it was race based, and codified by law. Blacks were inferior, subhumans, incapable of caring properly for themselves, given to behaving badly when not supervised by whites, and consequently enslaving them was actually doing them a favor. That was the doctrine being promoted by the slave owners.
True. And this distinction has to be made as it has had a huge impact on how society treated and viewed black people (and how some still view black people today). After all, today, where slavery wasn't race based (perhaps Feudal England and Russia are good examples?), those who were the descendants of slaves are just as much part of society today and didn't have to face the same hardships on account of the way they look.
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Old 08-30-2019, 12:40 PM
Status: "Proud American, Always and Forever" (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: DMV Area/NYC/Honolulu
12,829 posts, read 6,599,282 times
Reputation: 12361
Quote:
Originally Posted by finalmove View Post
Dude, read some history. European merchants needed labor and fast! They found it cheap with Blacks offered for sale by Blacks on the way to the Indies. Goodness, it was certainly a different era!

Blacks were always popular as slaves because they were sturdily built and would be immediately identifiable as an escapee solely on their color. Granted, that was harsh, and was outlawed sooner than many other Nations.

The recent infatuation the Left has with American slavery is cause for suspicion.

Any thoughts?
Chattel slavery as practiced in the New World was not like slavery as practiced elsewhere as a general matter, specifically because it was race based and relied on an inferiority complex. As a result, the stigmatization that were used to justify and enforce and instill slavery as an institution was used to justify the continued mistreatment of blacks post slavery and still play a role in how some view black people today. That was not the case for non-racial based slavery where people were generally free to blend in and make their own way generations after the fact without someone marking them by the color of their skin as racially inferior.

And why do you have to bring politics into a historical discussion (For the record, I am far from a leftist or liberal).
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Old 08-30-2019, 12:44 PM
Status: "Proud American, Always and Forever" (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: DMV Area/NYC/Honolulu
12,829 posts, read 6,599,282 times
Reputation: 12361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
It's easy to throw around convenient self-made truths about slavery, since we are so detached from it. But none of us here know what slaves truly went through, though we speak with confidence as though we know it all.

I've read my share of books about the subject, including from northern and southern perspectives. That helps, but will still be no match for tangible knowledge and experience.

In the end though, the writings of the founding fathers about freedom and liberty finally aligned with what we objectively learned about the races (after many years of assumption and racism). When it all clicked and came together, we could no longer continue on in the same manner as before. Nothing has changed, except a perverse desire to be willfully ignorant of the progress and evolution of this subject. Many are still stuck in the past, on the other side of the turning point.
Sure, we do. Because freed and escaped slaves wrote narratives detailing the cruelties of slavery. And the laws on the books authorizing punishment for slavery also give us an idea of how things were.

By the way, this is a history forum, so I don't know why some are intent on bashing and downplaying a historical topic based on their view of contemporary politics
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Old 08-30-2019, 12:45 PM
Status: "Proud American, Always and Forever" (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: DMV Area/NYC/Honolulu
12,829 posts, read 6,599,282 times
Reputation: 12361
More to the point, I posted this forum to share knowledge that is not widely taught in schools when discussing Indian Removal and the Trail of Tears.

Its a thread fitting for a history forum and isn't meant to touch on modern day debates about slavery.
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Old 08-30-2019, 01:41 PM
 
Location: annandale, va & slidell, la
7,653 posts, read 3,145,388 times
Reputation: 6492
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Yes, your response fails to address the question I posed. Can you provide another example of race based slavery, one where the enslavement was justified by a theory of the inherent inferiority of the humans being enslaved?

Again, is attitude all you have in the way of ammunition? Instead of "Dude, read some history", please provide us with the specific history you wish me to read which answers my question.
Why do you want to relitigate something that happened 150-years ago? What is the benefit other than causing trouble?
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Old 08-30-2019, 01:43 PM
 
Location: annandale, va & slidell, la
7,653 posts, read 3,145,388 times
Reputation: 6492
Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
Chattel slavery as practiced in the New World was not like slavery as practiced elsewhere as a general matter, specifically because it was race based and relied on an inferiority complex. As a result, the stigmatization that were used to justify and enforce and instill slavery as an institution was used to justify the continued mistreatment of blacks post slavery and still play a role in how some view black people today. That was not the case for non-racial based slavery where people were generally free to blend in and make their own way generations after the fact without someone marking them by the color of their skin as racially inferior.

And why do you have to bring politics into a historical discussion (For the record, I am far from a leftist or liberal).
You answer your own question then want to argue about it! LOL! Move on.
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Old 08-30-2019, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Mars City
5,215 posts, read 2,233,332 times
Reputation: 7645
Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
Sure, we do. Because freed and escaped slaves wrote narratives detailing the cruelties of slavery.
So reading a book gives you full understanding of a topic? Reading about living in Moscow - for example - gives you all you need to know, and would match actually being there? Reading about an epileptic fit - as another example - will give you all you need to know to feel what it is like?

No. No book can ever give the full experience of any living / breathing situation. Recognizing our ignorances and limitations is the first step towards gaining more understanding.
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