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Old Yesterday, 01:16 PM
Status: "cruel summer" (set 22 days ago)
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,781 posts, read 23,521,876 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
Drugs among Nazis - many, little, or none - pales in comparison to the gassing and murdering of Jews and others. Talking about drugs is as irrelevant to the 'big picture' as discussing the eating habits of Nazis, clothes they wore, music they listened to, etc.
Exactly. Hitler also imprisoned drug addicts in concentration camps. The Nazis were also very "anti-drug".

Typical right wing fascist hypocrisy.

Drug use was the least of the moral horrors plaguing nazi Germany.
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Old Yesterday, 01:46 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
22,000 posts, read 19,557,896 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
Exactly. Hitler also imprisoned drug addicts in concentration camps. The Nazis were also very "anti-drug".

Typical right wing fascist hypocrisy.

Drug use was the least of the moral horrors plaguing nazi Germany.
They explicitly said that the Nazis were very ambivalent regarding drugs. On the one hand drugs were rejected, but at the same time they were abused.
Same as with other things like Jazz music. Officially Jazz was despised in Nazi Germany, but at the same time some Nazis secretly collected Jazz records.
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Old Yesterday, 01:53 PM
 
1,024 posts, read 237,826 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar View Post
"Oh? I was not aware that drug use was common among early 20th-century vagabond Austrian painters of watercolors."

Hitler was a common house painter.
No, Hitler did watercolors. He was occasionally disparaged as a 'house painter' but until World War I he aspired to a career in fine arts. He was repeatedly rejected for admission to the Academy of Fine Arts in Vienna. He supplemented his meager income by painting simple Vienna sights and selling them. They've been universally dismissed by critics, but his surviving paintings became valuable in Germany during his time as Chancellor, and internationally to a lesser extent after World War II for the usual reason that art created by lunatics has a certain macabre following.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar View Post
But I don't think it would be uncommon for artists of that time to be influenced by the previous generation of artists and free thinkers who used absinthe for its supposed creative stimulating powers and psychoactive effects. This previous era was also an influence on elevating the concept of degeneracy.
Jesus. Who cares whether or not that 'wasn't 'uncommon'? Hitler's life is not some black hole upon which we must imagine things. He spent his time in Vienna (and then from 1913 until he enlisted, in Munich) living with a roommate or, more often, in homeless shelters or men's homes. He had lots of acquaintances. His lifestyle is well-known, despite his later attempts to cover up some aspects of it (the details of his avoidance of conscription into the Austro-Hungarian Army, the formulation of his anti-Semitism, his very early role in the Nazi Party, etc.). And what we know is that he smoked a lot, drank some, and that was it. Anyway, absinthe has no 'psychoactive effects'. It's just flavored booze around which a myth of special properties developed. So, supposedly, Hitler's was driven to commit genocide by being a booze-hound? (never mind that there's no evidence that he ever had an alcohol problem)

He wasn't a member of the counterculture. He wasn't John Lennon or Jerry Garcia trying to 'expand his mind'. He wasn't an artiste seeking deeper insights into the human experience. He was lazy and just painted enough to get himself by.
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Old Yesterday, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Mars City
5,222 posts, read 2,236,159 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
...some drugs lead to reduced morality and empathy..
Yeah, and alcohol is the best example. We all see the evidences of its reduced morality, in drunken arguments and beatings (against family, friends, and strangers), and flawed innocence in getting behind the wheel and killing others.

Regardless, it doesn't take drugs to reduce morality and empathy. We see many persons - in modern times and our own country - who are sober of intoxication, but drunk on racism and hatred of skin color. Better to look at that then some flimsy red herring employed for distraction.
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Old Yesterday, 02:10 PM
 
15,178 posts, read 13,818,280 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Your post makes no sense. I was not making any comparison. This thread is not about the Holocaust, but about the widespread drug abuse in Germany back then, including housewives that were eating Hildebrand chocolate with meth inside.

There might be a connection though, as some drugs lead to reduced morality and empathy, outright paranoia, etc. Things that could have contributed to the cold-blooded Holocaust and war crimes.

^

THIS.
This is what poses a big question mark I'd say ( or rather few of them).
It's one thing to be a soldier somewhere in the combat day in and day out and to get used to the death and destruction of the troops around you ( your own and the enemy's,) but it's another thing to deal in the utmost brutal manner with the civil population - the children, the elderly, the women ( be that jews or other targeted ethnicities.)
While we all know that there is certain amount of people naturally capable of this level of brutality practically in any nation ( some probably have more, some less of them,) however the questions remain.
How many of such people do you need to conduct the "ethnic purges" on grand scale?
How do you get such people?
Is it enough to simply condition them mentally for committing all these atrocities, without an "extra-help of additional substances?"
If yes, how long will they survive without going bezerk themselves?
If part of these people are destroyed in the course of war, where do you get the new ones to replenish their ranks, and do you need to "prop them up" with the help of any controlled substance?
If I put all these questions together, the logical answer comes that yes, most likely some kind of drugs in some capacity were used in Nazi Germany.
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Old Yesterday, 02:18 PM
 
15,178 posts, read 13,818,280 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
Exactly. Hitler also imprisoned drug addicts in concentration camps. The Nazis were also very "anti-drug".

Typical right wing fascist hypocrisy.

Drug use was the least of the moral horrors plaguing nazi Germany.

Oh but that's when it comes to the the drug addicts that didn't serve any purpose.


Likewise, the worthless German Socialists were sent into concentration camps (along with the Communists) while the "National Socialism" ( better known as Nazism) was the choice of Hitler's Germany.


There is a difference you see, or "the devil is in details."
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Old Yesterday, 02:22 PM
 
15,178 posts, read 13,818,280 times
Reputation: 6991
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
Yeah, and alcohol is the best example. We all see the evidences of its reduced morality, in drunken arguments and beatings (against family, friends, and strangers), and flawed innocence in getting behind the wheel and killing others.

Regardless, it doesn't take drugs to reduce morality and empathy. We see many persons - in modern times and our own country - who are sober of intoxication, but drunk on racism and hatred of skin color. Better to look at that then some flimsy red herring employed for distraction.

You contradict yourself right there.
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Old Yesterday, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Mars City
5,222 posts, read 2,236,159 times
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No contradiction. The premise before was that drugs can lead to decreased morality, and I only had to point to alcohol as an example of one such drug (and which we could also add is celebrated in the US).

The second point is we can lose morality and civil thought beyond alcohol. We don't have to be fixed as drugs as the only common denominator in the direction. Other vehicles exist too, such as hatred and racism.
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Old Yesterday, 02:53 PM
 
15,178 posts, read 13,818,280 times
Reputation: 6991
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thoreau424 View Post
No contradiction. The premise before was that drugs can lead to decreased morality, and I only had to point to alcohol as an example of one such drug (and which we could also add is celebrated in the US).

Rather altered state of mind.


Quote:
The second point is we can lose morality and civil thought beyond alcohol.
Yes, but the question remains to what degree?


Quote:
We don't have to be fixed as drugs as the only common denominator in the direction. Other vehicles exist too, such as hatred and racism.
Again - the DEGREE of it is a question.

"Racism" can be manifested downright in murders, and it can be manifested in desire to avoid the areas inhabited by "unwanted people."
While the first manifestation can be prevented by law, the second one can't ( provided money rule the situation.)

Same as with hatred.

As long as the hatred is not acted upon, ( that's something the law CAN control,) the hatred that the person harbors in his soul, is between only him and his maker.
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Old Yesterday, 05:48 PM
 
6,456 posts, read 3,680,951 times
Reputation: 22670
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2x3x29x41 View Post
Jesus. Who cares whether or not that 'wasn't 'uncommon'? Hitler's life is not some black hole upon which we must imagine things. He spent his time in Vienna (and then from 1913 until he enlisted, in Munich) living with a roommate or, more often, in homeless shelters or men's homes. He had lots of acquaintances. His lifestyle is well-known, despite his later attempts to cover up some aspects of it (the details of his avoidance of conscription into the Austro-Hungarian Army, the formulation of his anti-Semitism, his very early role in the Nazi Party, etc.). And what we know is that he smoked a lot, drank some, and that was it. Anyway, absinthe has no 'psychoactive effects'. It's just flavored booze around which a myth of special properties developed. So, supposedly, Hitler's was driven to commit genocide by being a booze-hound? (never mind that there's no evidence that he ever had an alcohol problem)

He wasn't a member of the counterculture. He wasn't John Lennon or Jerry Garcia trying to 'expand his mind'. He wasn't an artiste seeking deeper insights into the human experience. He was lazy and just painted enough to get himself by.
You've completely misread my post and quite dramatically, if I may add. Allow me to reinterpret for you:

I wasn't aware we were using this thread to analyze Hitler. We were discussing the social environment in which the Third Reich came to power. And it was greatly influenced by the generation which experienced WWI and the prevailing sense of failure and lack of power which had a psychological influence on the cultural atmosphere of the time.

This was a generation which was looking for a fix to a sense of low self-esteem. Among those things were a willingness to discard past "morality," a devil-may-care attitude and openness to a narrative that certain actions may provide grandeur to a disgraced nation.

I made no claims about the magic powers of absinthe. At the time no one knew one way or another. The fact that people believed it lent itself to degeneracy was the point of my example.

I don't know how you extrapolated from that that I believe it played any part in Hitler's genocidal tendencies. I am hoping that the sum of my posts contributes to an understanding that the general milieu created an atmosphere ripe for a person with Hitler's ideas.
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