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Old 09-10-2019, 01:25 PM
 
Location: San Diego CA
5,122 posts, read 3,506,998 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe from dayton View Post
The members of SS Division Totenkopf were not "Professional soldiers for generations."

I will also call BS to the rest of the story.
They certainly were not. In fact many of them were not even German. They came from various countries in Western Europe, the Soviet Union and even India. There was even a unit composed of Muslims.
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Old 09-10-2019, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Raleigh
8,514 posts, read 6,387,286 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Here's an interesting story about true soldiers valor.
WW2
Operation Bagration, you can look it up.
Troops of General Chuykov, ahead of schedule, cross Visla river and hold their position, waiting on their backup to join.

Their adversary was none else but famous SS division Totenkopf, dead skull. Professional soldiers for generations.
At some point in battles, German troops were surrounded.

After lost attempts to break out, one night, they chose to do psych attach onto Chuykov's soldiers and, breaking through, use Visla river as escape route.
Middle of the night, they strip naked down to waists, turn their division anthem up, turn projectors on and, lit by their light, march at Russian Gvardiya (Guard) troops - with nothing else but bayonets and knives.
As the man in video says - what's easier, simply mow them down with machine guns, right?
Well, Chykov's Gvardeitsy set aside their firearms, pull out THEIR bayonets and knives - and go "wall on wall" into the largest cold weapon hand to hand combat in WW2.
And they won. Germans didn't get through.
Military doctor, who witnessed that attack and later told about it to the man in video, said that never again in his life had he seen so many cut and ripped flesh wounds on so many soldiers.
Point to that story is rather likely not understood by now generation and miltaries, fighting from remote bunkers with drones and missiles.
It is a great example of true soldier valor, when battle is won by hand to hand and spirit against spirit, not with gizmos and technology. Gizmos and technology eventually exhausts and is spent, valor and spirit either is in PEOPLE- or is not.

Btw, reminds me of Australian corp in North Africa, fighting against Rommel.
They were known for going into attacks completely naked, with insignia drawn on their skin with indelible pencil. Allegedly, had the most shocking effect on Germans.
Two thoughts, by that time, the Soviets were battle hardened Professional Soldiers themselves.

And also, I wonder how much personal rage they held against the Germans (Rightfully so.)
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:01 PM
 
10,796 posts, read 16,022,330 times
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Chuykov troops were, actually, Gvardiya, The Guard. Elite troops. Not like Marines or similar, but they were specially ranked and honored as top notch battle force.
That's not the point to the video though.
Point is, true men fight hand to hand. Anyone can pull a firearm and shoot someone, not much courage needed. It takes some balls to, instead of machine gunning your half naked opponent, to do same - go hand to hand, face to face, mano a mano.
That's different quality of being a soldier. Rage or not.
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:05 PM
 
12,563 posts, read 18,667,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post

Btw, reminds me of Australian corp in North Africa, fighting against Rommel.
They were known for going into attacks completely naked, with insignia drawn on their skin with indelible pencil. Allegedly, had the most shocking effect on Germans.
Reading more of your thread, I am not sure where you are getting these stories from. I know of no event where Australian troops faught naked. That would give an extreme disadvantage to a soldier even with the shock value (more than likely the defenders would laugh, not flee, before mowing them down).

The most accomplished knife fighters may be Napali Gurhkas who fought with British and Indian forces including in North Africa, they had there own dedicated knife - the long curved kukri blade. However they were disciplined troops as well and wouldn't do anything crazy like fight naked or all drawn up.
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:09 PM
 
10,796 posts, read 16,022,330 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
I watched the video with a very rough English CC translation. Apparently this is like a story that old Russian soldiers hand down to new recruits. It's probably been handed down for 3 or 4 generations. It's also interesting for having some old world European rivalries - Teutonic Knights vs. the Knights of Russia as in recounting some glorious 13th century battle where the rulers of Eastern Orthodox Russia and Alexander Nevsky were battling Christian Invaders. Some things never change.

Alas, not much of the story really rings true. Of course there is no account of this story when trying to Google. Anyways, there was not much valor on the Russian front during World War II where in reality soldiers from both sides were killing and murdering civilians and POW's with about as much concern as one would kill flies.

Conclusion - military propaganda peace with interesting medieval historical components.



of course.
Noble acts of this nature very quickly get degraded and "forgotten" in general propaganda avalanche. Especially, if it may contradict that exactly propaganda.
Besides, it is rather easy to call such things of BS, while comfortably lounged in a chair in front of computer.
I PERSONALLY met a guy, who single handed captured 20 something German troops - while he was 14 yo partizan. I had his medal full heroic deed description in my hand.

I'd tend to believe that battle actually happened.
Also, at least one side had this in each and one of them soldier books:


While fighting for victory the German soldier will observe the rules of chivalrous warfare. Cruelties and senseless destruction are below his standard.

Combatants will be in uniform or will wear specially introduced and clearly distinguishable badges. Fighting in plain clothes or without such badges is prohibited.

No enemy who has surrendered will be killed, including partisans and spies. They will be duly punished by courts.

P.O.W. will not be ill-treated or insulted. While arms, maps, and records are to be taken away from them, their personal belongings will not be touched.

Dum-Dum bullets are prohibited; also no other bullets may be transformed into Dum-Dum.

Red Cross Institutions are sacrosanct. Injured enemies are to be treated in a humane way. Medical personnel and army chaplains may not be hindered in the execution of their medical, or clerical activities.

The civilian population is sacrosanct. No looting nor wanton destruction is permitted to the soldier. Landmarks of historical value or buildings serving religious purposes, art, science, or charity are to be especially respected. Deliveries in kind made, as well as services rendered by the population, may only be claimed if ordered by superiors and only against compensation.

Neutral territory will never be entered nor passed over by planes, nor shot at; it will not be the object of warlike activities of any kind.

If a German soldier is made a prisoner of war he will tell his name and rank if he is asked for it. Under no circumstances will he reveal to which unit he belongs, nor will he give any information about German military, political, and economic conditions. Neither promises nor threats may induce him to do so.

Offenses against the a/m matters of duty will be punished. Enemy offenses against the principles under 1 to 8 are to be reported. Reprisals are only permissible on order of higher commands.
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:11 PM
 
12,563 posts, read 18,667,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Chuykov troops were, actually, Gvardiya, The Guard. Elite troops. Not like Marines or similar, but they were specially ranked and honored as top notch battle force.
That's not the point to the video though.
Point is, true men fight hand to hand. Anyone can pull a firearm and shoot someone, not much courage needed. It takes some balls to, instead of machine gunning your half naked opponent, to do same - go hand to hand, face to face, mano a mano.
That's different quality of being a soldier. Rage or not.
Not World War II, but I present to you "General Butt Naked" and his butt naked brigade - yeah, some crazy general in Africa. Well, his troops wore shoes. I think it's more likely his naked "battles" involved massacring african villages with women and children rather than fighting armed troops.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Butt_Naked
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:14 PM
 
68 posts, read 9,366 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgsing View Post
They certainly were not. In fact many of them were not even German. They came from various countries in Western Europe, the Soviet Union and even India. There was even a unit composed of Muslims.
You are confusing the entire Waffen-SS with the Totenkopf Panzer Division, which most definitely did not include Russians, Muslims, or Indians.
Yes, as Himmler expanded the W-SS over the course of the war, various divisions were raised from other nationalities, including Ukrainians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, and smaller units from other European countries. The "Free Indian Legion", made up of Indian Army POW's, was very small.
The "classic" W-SS Divisions, made up of German nationals or ethnic Germans, remained true to the Aryan "ideal" until war's end.
These included the 1st, 2nd, 3rd ( Totenkopf), 8th, 9th, 12th Panzer divisions, and the 5th "Wiking" panzer division, comprised of Germans and Scandanavian volunteers. I would include some others, like the 6th Mountain Div., and 17th PanzerGrenadier div.
The "Handschar" Mountain Div., comprised of Bosnian Muslims, was a less than effective combat unit.
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:18 PM
 
12,563 posts, read 18,667,120 times
Reputation: 20041
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
of course.
Noble acts of this nature very quickly get degraded and "forgotten" in general propaganda avalanche. Especially, if it may contradict that exactly propaganda.
Besides, it is rather easy to call such things of BS, while comfortably lounged in a chair in front of computer.
I PERSONALLY met a guy, who single handed captured 20 something German troops - while he was 14 yo partizan. I had his medal full heroic deed description in my hand.

I'd tend to believe that battle actually happened.
Also, at least one side had this in each and one of them soldier books:


While fighting for victory the German soldier will observe the rules of chivalrous warfare. Cruelties and senseless destruction are below his standard.

Combatants will be in uniform or will wear specially introduced and clearly distinguishable badges. Fighting in plain clothes or without such badges is prohibited.

No enemy who has surrendered will be killed, including partisans and spies. They will be duly punished by courts.

P.O.W. will not be ill-treated or insulted. While arms, maps, and records are to be taken away from them, their personal belongings will not be touched.

Dum-Dum bullets are prohibited; also no other bullets may be transformed into Dum-Dum.

Red Cross Institutions are sacrosanct. Injured enemies are to be treated in a humane way. Medical personnel and army chaplains may not be hindered in the execution of their medical, or clerical activities.

The civilian population is sacrosanct. No looting nor wanton destruction is permitted to the soldier. Landmarks of historical value or buildings serving religious purposes, art, science, or charity are to be especially respected. Deliveries in kind made, as well as services rendered by the population, may only be claimed if ordered by superiors and only against compensation.

Neutral territory will never be entered nor passed over by planes, nor shot at; it will not be the object of warlike activities of any kind.

If a German soldier is made a prisoner of war he will tell his name and rank if he is asked for it. Under no circumstances will he reveal to which unit he belongs, nor will he give any information about German military, political, and economic conditions. Neither promises nor threats may induce him to do so.

Offenses against the a/m matters of duty will be punished. Enemy offenses against the principles under 1 to 8 are to be reported. Reprisals are only permissible on order of higher commands.

Umm, well, about that: Russia is estimated to have taken 3 million German POWs in WW2. 1 million never saw home again. Some never saw home until the 1950s. I know Russian sources tell a different story.
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Old 09-11-2019, 10:30 AM
 
Location: Raleigh
8,514 posts, read 6,387,286 times
Reputation: 11887
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
of course.
Noble acts of this nature very quickly get degraded and "forgotten" in general propaganda avalanche. Especially, if it may contradict that exactly propaganda.
Besides, it is rather easy to call such things of BS, while comfortably lounged in a chair in front of computer.
I PERSONALLY met a guy, who single handed captured 20 something German troops - while he was 14 yo partizan. I had his medal full heroic deed description in my hand.

I'd tend to believe that battle actually happened.
Also, at least one side had this in each and one of them soldier books:
I agree with you...Its one of those things, no reason to believe it didn't happen.

Honestly, the importance of those details of that specific skirmish, aren't extremely important to the history of the war.

The details, the story, of the 14 year old Partizan are amazing...But they aren't a huge part of the War in terms of History books.

There are thousands of stories like that, and thousands of stories of incredible valor.

Similarly, as neat as that story is, I don't think there's any grand conspiracy to keep it suppressed.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:08 AM
 
12,563 posts, read 18,667,120 times
Reputation: 20041
Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV View Post
I agree with you...Its one of those things, no reason to believe it didn't happen.
No reason to believe that a disciplined armed force of men threw away their firearms and clothes and attacked a heavily armed opponent naked with knives, and then to have that armed opponent throw away it's weapons and likewise attack with knives?
Lots of strange things happen in wars, but not this, for so many reasons that I wouldn't know where to start.

On the other hand 14 year old partisan capturing troops is certainly plausible and does not compare...unless he was naked and armed with only a knife.
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