Why was "Debtors' prison" a concept in the old days? (colonies, European)

[Msgenerse]

Sure they may not pay their debts, but by imprisoning them, they most certainly won't have any avenue to pay their debts, so wasn't it really very counterproductive to imprison people for not paying it?

[Avondalist]

Formal employment was rare in those days. Even if you didn't imprison the debtor, you probably wouldn't be repaid because he would never have the money.

Also consider that creditworthiness was harder to determine and much more informal, so the borrower himself had to exercise caution when taking out a loan.

Imprisonment was primarily a deterrent against taking out loans you would never be able to repay, and secondarily a punitive measure to give some satisfaction to the creditor and act as a warning to others.

[MrRational]

Originally Posted by Msgenerse

Why was "Debtors, prison" a concept in the old days?

It was just one step along the legality trail.

...but by imprisoning them, they most certainly won't have any avenue to pay their debts

That's where the next step on the legality trail comes in: indenture.

Originally Posted by wiki

The total number of European immigrants to all 13 colonies before 1775 was 500,000–550,000;
of these, 55,000 were involuntary prisoners. Of the 450,000 or so European arrivals who came voluntarily...48% were indentured.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indent...n_the_Americas

[musicfamly5]

Originally Posted by Msgenerse

Sure they may not pay their debts, but by imprisoning them, they most certainly won't have any avenue to pay their debts, so wasn't it really very counterproductive to imprison people for not paying it?

Depending on the time and place many methods were used to "pay off" the debt. Debtors prison was an option for those with repetitive problems of running up debts. Typically these individuals have already proven they couldn't possibly pay the amount for whatever reason so the prison was viewed as an option to keep them from creating more debts and "work off" the debt they had.

Some people were held until family could pay the debt off for them. Others like Mr. Rational pointed out became indentured servants that were sent away to colonies to pay off the debt. Most would work hard labor jobs within the debtors prison (the prison would have a workhouse portion) and work off their debt during their sentence.

[ClaraC]

Debtors prison was basically a way to get ne'er do wells off the streets, and provide a visible threat of punishment to others who might fall into poverty themselves.

Also, most were workhouses so the public could profit off the unpaid labor of the underclass.

[cebuan]

Because the English were the cruelest basterds in the history of the world, complete devoid of compassion. And by the way, lived in the filthiest cites.

[Grandstander]

It was a matter of treating an unpaid debt as a crime, the crime of theft. It isn't so unreasonable, we still have courts empowered to jail people who fail to pay child support.

If I borrowed 500 bucks from you and when it is time for it to be repaid, you say "I'm not paying", you are a thief. The specific reasons for why the debt isn't being paid is subordinate to the fact that you are out 500 bucks, just like you would be if I had stolen it from you.

[markg91359]

Originally Posted by Grandstander

It was a matter of treating an unpaid debt as a crime, the crime of theft. It isn't so unreasonable, we still have courts empowered to jail people who fail to pay child support.

If I borrowed 500 bucks from you and when it is time for it to be repaid, you say "I'm not paying", you are a thief. The specific reasons for why the debt isn't being paid is subordinate to the fact that you are out 500 bucks, just like you would be if I had stolen it from you.

I suspect that is how it was looked at back than.

However, there is a difference between three statements.

1. Can't pay;

2. Won't pay;

3. Will pay with some persuasion.

Someone who "cannot pay" court ordered child support will not go to jail. Someone either "won't pay" or "will pay with some persuasion" will be threatened by a judge and ultimately sent to jail if they refuse to pay.

I toured Colonial Williamsburg about a decade ago. One thing that has stayed with me is the jail. Even in the Colonial period they were getting away from imprisonment for debt. For example, there were special cells for debtors that were far nicer than the cells that existed for run of the mill criminals. Additionally, the only way imprisonment for debt worked was that the creditor had to agree to pay the incarceration costs of the debtor. If he refused to do so, the debtor remained free. Many merchants in this time period realized that this was a losing proposition. It was simply throwing good money after bad. So, in time, merchants on their own refused to exercise the option of having a debtor thrown in jail.

Our modern bankruptcy laws were an outgrowth of this process. Society finally reached a conclusion that it was better to set up a process that allowed those heavily indebted to wipe away those debts. Ordinarily, they must give up most of what they have to do so. However, if they are willing to do that, they received a discharge through the bankruptcy courts that washes away their debts.

[2x3x29x41]

Originally Posted by Msgenerse

Sure they may not pay their debts, but by imprisoning them, they most certainly won't have any avenue to pay their debts, so wasn't it really very counterproductive to imprison people for not paying it?

Well, the concept was deterrence, which is still a pillar of the criminal justice system.

Was it practical? Sort of, at least in theory.

However, to put it in context, in those days they were burning witches at the stake and hanging 8-year-olds for theft. Let's just say that the logic of crime and punishment in those days was still rather primitive. I'm not saying that our modern criminal justice system is the pinnacle of rationality, but it certainly demonstrates that we've learned at least a few lessons along the way and made some adjustments for the better.

[good_deal_maker]

"Debtors, prison" was a concept in the old days because people were stronger and harder. Large part of people was employed to a difficult tedious work. Besides they fought with sabers and bayonets in war. Our ancestors had other customs and way of life than we have.