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Old 11-28-2019, 08:51 PM
 
Location: Preussen
420 posts, read 120,051 times
Reputation: 308

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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
It's not about "niceties" - it's about history.

And precisely because of this particular event ( and some other events involving Poland back in history,) - it's precisely THIS what led Russians ( or rather Stalin) to "partition of Poland" early in the war. And it's THIS that brought Katyn's massacre a bit later.

Stalin didn't want ANY chances of Poland being involved in any independent capacity in WWII, since ( by Russian political and military historic experience) it could be used again by other major powers against Russian interests.
But it takes some knowledge of history ( and ability to follow the logical chain of events) to understand what leads to what.
This is unreal. Typical russian mentality. Are you guys ever at fault with something. Stalin did not want only to control Poland therefore your arguments do not make sense. As it was showed during and after war. His goal was to control as big chunk of a world as he only could control and spread his retarded communist ideology worldwide. Now explain to us what threat was Estonia or Latvia to Soviet Union? Or Finland? Come on. You can't seriously believe what you write. If you had real knowledge of history you would understand how empires work. And Soviet Empire was not different in its goals to any other empire which is to have as big control over as big part of world as it only can, only that it had much more blood on its hands during relatively short period of time. Katyn massacre? That is low now. Those were prisoners of war. They had no arguments. Killing those officers changed absolutely nothing, Poland was already defeated, what was that supposed to change? Do they really even try to argument and defend this cold bloded murder in Russia? But it just showed the world the true face of soviets. Can't believe there are still people in 21st century who could defend such thing and who would defend communism even though it was already proven to be absolutely stupid, non practical ideology.


Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
You need to wake up and to look around a bit.

"Economy" is not the only factor that decides who rules what. The alliances, the weaponry, the geopolitical outlook, the debts, the internal strength of systems - those are all factors that decide it.
Russia today does not even come close in any way to Soviet Union's influence during cold war era. Almost all of their former allies despise it. It is shell of its former self. You are deluding yourself if you think it is a threat as it once was. The only country that could be somewhat arguably called global superpower today except from the United States would be China. But even that is debatable.

Again, stop blaming others for your own actions and failures. Instead of focusing on the rest of the world, look at yourself and do something about yourself. You can't even manage your own country. It is a mess. Poverty, alcoholism, suicides, corruption, nepotism. And you wanna decide the fate of the rest of the world. Start from yourself and make your life better as it should be.

Last edited by WestPreussen; 11-28-2019 at 09:13 PM..
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Old 11-28-2019, 09:02 PM
 
15,662 posts, read 14,136,811 times
Reputation: 7095
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post

Russia today does not even come close in any way to Soviet Union's influence during cold war era. Almost all of their former allies despise it. It is shell of its former self. The only country that could somewhat arguably be called global superpower today except of the United States would be China. But even that is debatable.

You are not watching closely; apparently, you are taking things only at the face value.

But look at Syria, look at debt-laden US and debt-free Russia, look at growing rift between EU and US (and yes, Russia is at the heart of it all,) look at the economic union between Russia and China, and you will see much more clouds on the horizon than you currently notice.
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Old 11-28-2019, 09:09 PM
 
Location: Preussen
420 posts, read 120,051 times
Reputation: 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
You are not watching closely; apparently, you are taking things only at the face value.

But look at Syria, look at debt-laden US and debt-free Russia, look at growing rift between EU and US (and yes, Russia is at the heart of it all,) look at the economic union between Russia and China, and you will see much more clouds on the horizon than you currently notice.
There are players and There are players. There are plenty of them. Just because Russia plays the game does not make it top player. Long way to go. As I said not even close to the influence it once had. Neither as soviet union nor russian empire.
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Old 11-28-2019, 09:28 PM
 
15,662 posts, read 14,136,811 times
Reputation: 7095
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
This is unreal. Typical russian mentality. Are you guys ever at fault with something. Stalin did not want only to control Poland therefore your arguments do not make sense. As it was showed during and after war. His goal was to control as big chunk of a world as he only could control and spread his retarded communist ideology worldwide. Now explain to us what threat was Estonia or Latvia to Soviet Union? Or Finland? Come on. You can't seriously believe what you write. If you had real knowledge of history you would understand how empires work. And Soviet Empire was not different in its goals to any other empire which is to have as big control over as big part of world as it only can, only that it had much more blood on its hands during relatively short period of time. Katyn massacre? That is low now. Those were prisoners of war. They had no arguments. Killing those officers changed absolutely nothing, Poland was already defeated, what was that supposed to change? Do they really even try to argument and defend this cold bloded murder in Russia? But it just showed the world the true face of soviets. Can't believe there are still people in 21st century who could defend such thing and who would defend communism even though it was already proven to be absolutely stupid, non practical ideology.

P.S. You don't understand Stalin at all.
He was far more practical, so he was not interested in "controlling as big chunk of the world as he only could" - that was Trotsky ( as I've said) and his "world revolution."

Stalin was looking at everything from the "state security" point of view, and unlike the original revolutionary "Jewish internationalists," that's what he cared about first and utmost.

Estonia and Latvia were a matter of BORDER security in events of physical attack on Russia ( you need to remember that back in that time the wars were still fought with conventional weapons, and Russia learned the "war of attrition" as the best defense already back in history.)
Finland was "dangerous" for the very same reason - because of the close proximity to St. Petersburg, and that's why when the initial negotiations regarding the "borders swap" didn't work out, Soviet gov. provoked outright the war with Finland. They lost that time around, and their worst fears came true. Finland became an accessory to one of the most horrible sieges in modern history, when about million of civilians were starved to death and shelled, with huge destruction to the city with unique cultural heritage, that's protected now by UNESCO.
And these are all the reasons why Stalin tried to grab all the lands of former Russian Empire, understanding the strategic value of them. Because that's when Russian state felt secure.

(As I said, you need to dig history in order to understand all that.)
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Old 11-28-2019, 10:00 PM
 
Location: Preussen
420 posts, read 120,051 times
Reputation: 308
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
P.S. You don't understand Stalin at all.
He was far more practical, so he was not interested in "controlling as big chunk of the world as he only could" - that was Trotsky ( as I've said) and his "world revolution."

Stalin was looking at everything from the "state security" point of view, and unlike the original revolutionary "Jewish internationalists," that's what he cared about first and utmost.

Estonia and Latvia were a matter of BORDER security in events of physical attack on Russia ( you need to remember that back in that time the wars were still fought with conventional weapons, and Russia learned the "war of attrition" as the best defense already back in history.)
Finland was "dangerous" for the very same reason - because of the close proximity to St. Petersburg, and that's why when the initial negotiations regarding the "borders swap" didn't work out, Soviet gov. provoked outright the war with Finland. They lost that time around, and their worst fears came true. Finland became an accessory to one of the most horrible sieges in modern history, when about million of civilians were starved to death and shelled, with huge destruction to the city with unique cultural heritage, that's protected now by UNESCO.
And these are all the reasons why Stalin tried to grab all the lands of former Russian Empire, understanding the strategic value of them. Because that's when Russian state felt secure.

(As I said, you need to dig history in order to understand all that.)
As I said you will excuse everything. You will also excuse Czechoslovakia 1968 and Hungary 1956. Poor Russia needs to attack everyone around because it will attack her otherwise. If country is too small to attack then it will make a difference when someone else attacks Russia. You can just as easily excuse German attack on Poland or Soviet Union or Poland offensive on Kiev. Basically everything. The Soviet Union was one of the most disgusting human creations that has ever existed. And thankfully those excuses of modern day russian-soviet apologists will not convince anyone who uses his or her brain and see all the proofs otherwise. To think that Soviet Union was not an imperialist state and just defended itself is delusional. And sorry to dissapoint you but Stalin did not care about you russians at all. You were just statistic to him. Nothing else. Stalin imperialism and the countries that he put under his control is undeniable. Read up on history instead of russian propaganda.
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Old 11-28-2019, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Preussen
420 posts, read 120,051 times
Reputation: 308
Communists did not care about russians at all. Their approach would be summed up perfectly with conversation that Dzierzhinsky one the leading communists had with polish authorities during peace of Riga conversations.

-"What do you want from me? No other Pole has killed as many ruskies as I did"- Felix Dzierzhynsky to Leon Wasilewski.

That is how communists perceived russians and other "soviet nationalities" and so did Stalin. The delusion of russians that those guys were russian patriots is just crazy.
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Old 11-28-2019, 10:21 PM
 
15,662 posts, read 14,136,811 times
Reputation: 7095
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
As I said you will excuse everything. You will also excuse Czechoslovakia 1968 and Hungary 1956.
Not necessarily ( particularly taking in consideration that in 1968 the USSR already felt itself fairly secure.)

On another hand - I have the latest example of what happened in Ukraine after Maidan.

Quote:
Poor Russia needs to attack everyone around because it will attack her otherwise. If country is too small to attack then it will make a difference when someone else attacks Russia.
That's what history proved - yes.

So for the most part, such attacks have strategic value.

Quote:
You can just as easily excuse German attack on Poland or Soviet Union or Poland offensive on Kiev.
I have an UNDERSTANDING of why it happened, the roots of it - yes.

However the "racial theories" on which Hitler acted upon were criminal/aberrant, to say the least.

Quote:
Basically everything. The Soviet Union was one of the most disgusting human creations that has ever existed.
Looking in retrospective ( particularly at 60-70ies period) - no, it was not.

I'm sure there are much worse examples out there, particularly when it comes to colonial times.

Quote:
And thankfully those excuses of modern day russian-soviet apologists will not convince anyone who uses his or her brain and see all the proofs otherwise. To think that Soviet Union was not an imperialist state and just defended itself is delusional.
I don't need to convince anyone.

Everyone is free to believe in what he/she wishes.

But I am not going to buy anyone's propaganda either.

Quote:
And sorry to dissapoint you but Stalin did not care about you russians at all. You were just statistic to him. Nothing else. Stalin imperialism and the countries that he put under his control is undeniable. Read up on history instead of russian propaganda.
"Russian propaganda" actually disowned Stalin already long time ago.

But history remains.
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Old 11-28-2019, 10:28 PM
 
Location: Preussen
420 posts, read 120,051 times
Reputation: 308
Well by the 1960s-1970s it was already authoritarian state and not totalitarian like under Lenin and Stalin. So it cooled of. But during its "peak" only Mao's China surpasses them with number of killing of its own citizens in recent history. Funny that it was also communist state.
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Old 11-28-2019, 10:48 PM
 
15,662 posts, read 14,136,811 times
Reputation: 7095
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
Well by the 1960s-1970s it was already authoritarian state and not totalitarian like under Lenin and Stalin. So it cooled of. But during its "peak" only Mao's China surpasses them with number of killing of its own citizens in recent history. Funny that it was also communist state.

Except for Mao's China didn't have what it takes to turn itself in the industrial super-power, in spite of being a copy-cat of Russia, so all this mass murder served what purpose exactly?


In case of Russia, you need to understand that in order to reach the "stage 2" with all it perks, the "stage 1" was unavoidable," provided the civil war, destruction, huge death toll (even from typhus alone,) internal unrest in the country, plus external threat.
It took an "iron hand" to deal with all that, otherwise the country could have simply collapse, becoming an easy prey even for Poland (not to mention the others.)
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Old 12-03-2019, 11:46 PM
 
Location: Russia
393 posts, read 60,724 times
Reputation: 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
As I said you will excuse everything. You will also excuse Czechoslovakia 1968 and Hungary 1956. Poor Russia needs to attack everyone around because it will attack her otherwise. If country is too small to attack then it will make a difference when someone else attacks Russia. You can just as easily excuse German attack on Poland or Soviet Union or Poland offensive on Kiev. Basically everything. The Soviet Union was one of the most disgusting human creations that has ever existed. And thankfully those excuses of modern day russian-soviet apologists will not convince anyone who uses his or her brain and see all the proofs otherwise. To think that Soviet Union was not an imperialist state and just defended itself is delusional. And sorry to dissapoint you but Stalin did not care about you russians at all. You were just statistic to him. Nothing else. Stalin imperialism and the countries that he put under his control is undeniable. Read up on history instead of russian propaganda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
Well by the 1960s-1970s it was already authoritarian state and not totalitarian like under Lenin and Stalin. So it cooled of. But during its "peak" only Mao's China surpasses them with number of killing of its own citizens in recent history. Funny that it was also communist state.
All your posts can be answered with one Russian proverb: "I see a mote in the prying eye, and I do not notice the log in my own eye."
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