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Old 11-10-2019, 08:07 PM
 
Location: San Diego CA
5,424 posts, read 3,625,220 times
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Nagasaki, Hiroshima and Dresden. Were there any major wars in human history where the combatants did not kill innocent people in order to achieve victory. And if you limit yourself to war fought exclusively against trained military combatants and the other side does not is a just war in defense of home and country doomed to failure.

Last edited by msgsing; 11-10-2019 at 08:27 PM..
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Old 11-10-2019, 08:31 PM
 
Location: Preussen
385 posts, read 105,865 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgsing View Post
Nagasaki, Hiroshima and Dresden. Were there any major wars in human history where the combatants did not kill innocent people in order to achieve victory. And if you limit yourself to war fought exclusively by trained military combatants and the other side does not is a just war in defense of home and country doomed to failure.
Well droping atomic bomb happened only once twice actually. Anyway I wrote many times that Germany, Soviet Union were worse than United States. Does not change the fact that both United Kingdom and United States also targeted civilians and commited atrocities just to terrorize civillians. It was a total war from both sides. Had Hitler droped an atomic bomb on civilians the same americans who excuse Truman would be the first to jump on Hitler and point out his barbarism.

Actually african front was pretty clean war from both british and german sides.
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Old 11-10-2019, 09:01 PM
509
 
3,298 posts, read 4,251,386 times
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Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
You mean sarcastic or not? Because it depended on farmer. My Great grandfather was taken as forced labour to Germany and he said that owner of farm was the best guy, he ever met. Never treated my grandparent badly. He even made a wedding for my great grandparents. Of course not everyone had such luck to land on such farm with a good guy like that.
My father liked the Germans even being a SLAVE, which shows you what life in the Soviet Union was like under Stalin.

My mother was take as a SLAVE (forced labor?? really) and the owner of the farm FED HIS DOGS before his SLAVES.....whatever was left over from the dogs.

When the US Air Force started dropping bombs, the owner of the farm took his dogs into the bomb shelter with him. The SLAVES were left in the barn to watch the American bomb rain down.

That is NOT being sarcastic. Just being truthful. The term "forced labor" is a crock.

The Germans held those folks as SLAVES....you couldn't leave, you didn't get paid, and the owner could literally kill you without any consequences.

That is the definition of a SLAVE.

Oh, both my parents LOVED the US military...even the planes. I was really surprised that my father did not leave ALL his money to US military.
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Old 11-11-2019, 06:05 AM
 
Location: Preussen
385 posts, read 105,865 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 509 View Post
My father liked the Germans even being a SLAVE, which shows you what life in the Soviet Union was like under Stalin.

My mother was take as a SLAVE (forced labor?? really) and the owner of the farm FED HIS DOGS before his SLAVES.....whatever was left over from the dogs.

When the US Air Force started dropping bombs, the owner of the farm took his dogs into the bomb shelter with him. The SLAVES were left in the barn to watch the American bomb rain down.

That is NOT being sarcastic. Just being truthful. The term "forced labor" is a crock.

The Germans held those folks as SLAVES....you couldn't leave, you didn't get paid, and the owner could literally kill you without any consequences.

That is the definition of a SLAVE.

Oh, both my parents LOVED the US military...even the planes. I was really surprised that my father did not leave ALL his money to US military.
Yeah, they did not have a luck that my great grandparents had. I meant if you meant "living in Germany was signaficant improvement to their lives" as sarcastic. Turnes out, not. And your parents didn't have a luck to the farmer. It really shows you what Soviet Union was back then.
Living in Interwar and war period Soviet Union under Lenin and Stalin was probably one of the worst places in time to live in. If not the worst.
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Old 11-11-2019, 09:31 AM
 
822 posts, read 619,486 times
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Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
You would rather live in 1930s Germany than 1930s Soviet Union. Believe me. Your chances of survival would be much better.
Not if you were a Jew, Socialist, Communist, homosexual, etc....
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Old 11-11-2019, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Preussen
385 posts, read 105,865 times
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Originally Posted by tlarnla View Post
Not if you were a Jew, Socialist, Communist, homosexual, etc....
Still much higher chances of survival in 1930s Germany than in 1930s Soviet Union. And Holocaust did not really start untill 1941. And nazis were socialists themselves. Just in 1930s millions of people were murdered in Soviet Union. Among them many communists, jews, socialists and homosexuals. Not even close to Germany's figures during this decade regardless of which group of people that you mentioned.
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Old 11-11-2019, 10:26 AM
 
822 posts, read 619,486 times
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Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
So you mean the U.S. would have only the choice of surrendering or making an impractically bloody conventional attack?
This is the common American view. We've been taught that the Japanese were fierce fighters, and would never surrender, and dropping the bombs was the only way to end the war.



That's not entirely true though. Japan was ready to surrender. Their country was being destroyed and their military was spent.



I read that Japan was trying to negotiate a surrender to Russia, because they thought the Russians would treat them better. The Russians wanted to accept their terms for surrender, but were stalling (I forget why). One view is that the United States wanted to force Japan to surrender to them, before Russia was in a position to accept their surrender.



A somewhat popular view in Japan, though, is that the US wanted to test out their new nuclear technology, and the war was almost over, so they wanted to drop the bombs before it was too late to test it on humans. The argument for this is that the military avoided bombing any of the cities chosen as atomic bomb drop sites, because they wanted to keep them in pristine condition until the bomb drop. Another argument for this view is that the US flooded Hiroshima and Nagasaki with scientists after the surrender, to "study" the victims. I hope that's not the case (although it may have been on the minds of some people in the military.)
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Old 11-11-2019, 10:41 AM
Status: "Trump Resistance - The (establishment) Empire Strikes Back" (set 7 days ago)
 
Location: New York Area
17,266 posts, read 6,778,355 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlarnla View Post
This is the common American view. We've been taught that the Japanese were fierce fighters, and would never surrender, and dropping the bombs was the only way to end the war.

That's not entirely true though. Japan was ready to surrender. Their country was being destroyed and their military was spent.

I read that Japan was trying to negotiate a surrender to Russia, because they thought the Russians would treat them better. The Russians wanted to accept their terms for surrender, but were stalling (I forget why). One view is that the United States wanted to force Japan to surrender to them, before Russia was in a position to accept their surrender.

A somewhat popular view in Japan, though, is that the US wanted to test out their new nuclear technology, and the war was almost over, so they wanted to drop the bombs before it was too late to test it on humans. The argument for this is that the military avoided bombing any of the cities chosen as atomic bomb drop sites, because they wanted to keep them in pristine condition until the bomb drop. Another argument for this view is that the US flooded Hiroshima and Nagasaki with scientists after the surrender, to "study" the victims. I hope that's not the case (although it may have been on the minds of some people in the military.)
There is utterly no support for any of this. Why would Japan be a close, tight ally if the view there that we were using their civilians for testing purposes. As far as Japanese talk of surrender, there was on-again, off-again hints. But nothing definitive. There was, remember, a full-blown war in progress that they started by means of invading and conducting massacres in Manchuria, an seizing a bunch of Pacific islands.
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Old 11-11-2019, 11:17 AM
 
822 posts, read 619,486 times
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Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
There is utterly no support for any of this. Why would Japan be a close, tight ally if the view there that we were using their civilians for testing purposes. As far as Japanese talk of surrender, there was on-again, off-again hints. But nothing definitive. There was, remember, a full-blown war in progress that they started by means of invading and conducting massacres in Manchuria, an seizing a bunch of Pacific islands.
Yes, Japan started the war. They did terrible things. They had to be stopped. But the fact is, the war was practically over at that point. Japan was spent.



The kamikaze pilots were a last ditch effort to continue fighting. They had plenty of planes and soldiers, but were running out of fuel to fly the planes. So they sent solo pilots out on suicide missions, like human bombs. They wouldn't have wasted soldiers and planes like that if they were winning. (That should probably be added to their own list of cruelties, sacrificing the lives of their own soldiers like that.)



I think the reason that Japan became a close ally of the US is because we were good winners. We treated them good during the Occupation, we sent medical people to help their wounded, and we helped rebuild their country. Our soldiers were friendly to their people, and gave chocolate and candy to the kids. The Japanese were afraid that if they surrendered to us, we'd be really cruel and merciless to them. Instead, we treated them better than their own government had treated them.
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Old 11-11-2019, 11:25 AM
509
 
3,298 posts, read 4,251,386 times
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Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
Still much higher chances of survival in 1930s Germany than in 1930s Soviet Union. And Holocaust did not really start untill 1941. And nazis were socialists themselves. Just in 1930s millions of people were murdered in Soviet Union. Among them many communists, jews, socialists and homosexuals. Not even close to Germany's figures during this decade regardless of which group of people that you mentioned.
The New York Times refused to report on the murder of 10 million Ukrainians by Stalin. Likewise, their reporting on what was happening in the Soviet Union during those times, was very biased towards supporting Stalin and Communism.

For most Americans, the Soviet Union in the 1930's was a idyllic country trying hard to create the perfect nation state. When the truth was the greatest mass murders in the history of world to date.

A few months ago, I saw a Hollywood made movie in the early 1940's about the start German invasion of the Soviet Union. It won an Academy Award. It showed a paradise on earth before the Germans showed up!!! I wish I could remember the name of the movie. I don't know how the people that made that movie could live with themselves and the lies that they were portraying to the American people. Does anybody remember the name of the movie??

One of the few books that covers that time period. BTW....most Snyder's numbers are low for the number of deaths.

https://www.amazon.com/Bloodlands-Eu.../dp/0465031471

Your library should have it. Gruesome book, I couldn't read more than a chapter at a time. It will give you nightmares.

Last edited by 509; 11-11-2019 at 11:44 AM..
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