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Old 11-09-2019, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Somewhere on this 3rd rock from the sun
532 posts, read 744,658 times
Reputation: 725

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I am reading The last days of hitler, written by an English historian who researched and wrote the book right after the war ended. It reinvigorated my interest in WW2, and I ended up watching many documentaries.
There seems to be a consensus among many people that Josef Stalin was a far worse person and a tyrant than Adolf Hitler. Do you agree?

Personally speaking, whilst Stalin was a sociopath who sacrificed his troops unnecessarily and even killed many of his own people, I don't see how he was worse than Hitler. If we use this hypothesis of killing millions of his own people then shoudnt China's Mao also be included?

Hitler "ruled" for barely 12 years and he did immense damage. Stalin ruled for much longer. I can't imagine if Hitler won the war and ruled for as long as Stalin did, what he'd have done, or how many millions more would have perished. Hitler was far worse imo.
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Old 11-09-2019, 04:32 PM
 
9,495 posts, read 9,548,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rishi85 View Post
I am reading The last days of hitler, written by an English historian who researched and wrote the book right after the war ended. It reinvigorated my interest in WW2, and I ended up watching many documentaries.
There seems to be a consensus among many people that Josef Stalin was a far worse person and a tyrant than Adolf Hitler. Do you agree?

Personally speaking, whilst Stalin was a sociopath who sacrificed his troops unnecessarily and even killed many of his own people, I don't see how he was worse than Hitler. If we use this hypothesis of killing millions of his own people then shoudnt China's Mao also be included?

Hitler "ruled" for barely 12 years and he did immense damage. Stalin ruled for much longer. I can't imagine if Hitler won the war and ruled for as long as Stalin did, what he'd have done, or how many millions more would have perished. Hitler was far worse imo.
What is the difference between profoundly evil and terribly evil?

When you are asked to compare Hitler and Stalin that is the comparison that you are required to make.

I think it is a foolish comparison. Let's just say both were unspeakably evil and leave it at that.

The only point I will make beyond that is that Stalin was primarily cruel to just his own people. Hitler was cruel to all sorts of people outside of his country of Germany.

This is why it was possible for the USA and the UK to form a military alliance with Stalin. Cruel as he was, Stalin was definitely in charge of the Soviet Union. Finally, Stalin was a huge help to America in terms of winning World War II.
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Old 11-09-2019, 04:34 PM
 
11,137 posts, read 16,377,977 times
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Audite et alter pars.
If you ever want to have unbiased opinion on a subject, you need to research that subject not from just one perspective but, from its exactly opposite too.

Otherwise, you are sure to fall into biased, usually, driven by ideologically and politically fueled propaganda, opinion.
Remember one thing, a wisdom, as put in words of one of Napoleon generals:
History is a prostitute, sitting in victor's lap.

That said, learn Russian, internet has no boundaries, except for China, and go read quite different history of that man - from original source. Wouldn't it be fair, think you? If you were genuinely interested, of course, not just stirring another Stalin slurring thread.
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Old 11-09-2019, 04:38 PM
 
11,137 posts, read 16,377,977 times
Reputation: 12750
The only point I will make beyond that is that Stalin was primarily cruel to just his own people.

You referring to people that honestly loved him from the depth of their hearts? As in - millions of them? Sort of hard to believe that such love may come to be, if those millions had nothing but crap for life, aye?
Or, to ones that, for dozens of years, did nothing but conspired to sell the country to foreign concessions? Betray it in any way possible, as far as it suits West needs? Those, who finally poisoned him and took over?
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Old 11-09-2019, 04:43 PM
 
Location: San Diego CA
5,424 posts, read 3,625,220 times
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Well. They both rank right at the top of the mass murder club. Probably co equal sociopaths. Not easy to separate and determine who was worse. Probably Hitler was a little more methodical and systematic. His killing machine was a factory operation. People delivered to the camps for processing and elimination. Even the death trains ran on schedule and were on time.

Stalin's was more random and less well planned. As in the Ukraine people were just left to starve over long periods of time. Some people went to the Gulags and others did not. Nothing like Hitler's well planned killing centers. You may have been labeled an enemy of the people on the whim of a neighbor or not. Stalin's rampages against enemies ebbed and flowed.
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Old 11-09-2019, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Somewhere on this 3rd rock from the sun
532 posts, read 744,658 times
Reputation: 725
Quote:
Originally Posted by ukrkoz View Post
Audite et alter pars.
If you ever want to have unbiased opinion on a subject, you need to research that subject not from just one perspective but, from its exactly opposite too.

Otherwise, you are sure to fall into biased, usually, driven by ideologically and politically fueled propaganda, opinion.
Remember one thing, a wisdom, as put in words of one of Napoleon generals:
History is a prostitute, sitting in victor's lap.

That said, learn Russian, internet has no boundaries, except for China, and go read quite different history of that man - from original source. Wouldn't it be fair, think you? If you were genuinely interested, of course, not just stirring another Stalin slurring thread.
I am genuinely interested, and I don't come on this board enough to realize there are other condescending posts on Stalin. I would really like to know.

Are you Russian? I didn't mean to offend anyone. Alas, as much as I adore languages learning Russian is not possible. Too many things to do, not much time now. Is there any book you'd recommend in English that tells the story from the Russian pov.

Thanks.
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Old 11-09-2019, 05:23 PM
 
Location: Preussen
385 posts, read 105,865 times
Reputation: 278
You would rather live in 1930s Germany than 1930s Soviet Union. Believe me. Your chances of survival would be much better.

In Soviet Union during this time all it took was that you annoyed your neighbour, and he made up story that you critizised government and you would end up dead and your whole family most likely too. No one would ask you a question or give a stuff if it is truth. That was a killing machine which did not care about anything, your status, your loyality, your religion or your nationality. Read what happened to Rokossowski and he was loyal general. After what NKVD did to him he slept with a gun under his pillow for the rest of his life in case they came after him once again. Surviving in this country was like playing russian roullete.

Many generals disobeyed Hitler and nothing happened to them. Yes, Hitler was a tyrant but not even close in his craziness to Stalin.
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Old 11-09-2019, 05:26 PM
 
Location: Here
1,480 posts, read 362,806 times
Reputation: 5479
Quote:
Originally Posted by rishi85 View Post
I am reading The last days of hitler, written by an English historian who researched and wrote the book right after the war ended. It reinvigorated my interest in WW2, and I ended up watching many documentaries.
There seems to be a consensus among many people that Josef Stalin was a far worse person and a tyrant than Adolf Hitler. Do you agree?

Personally speaking, whilst Stalin was a sociopath who sacrificed his troops unnecessarily and even killed many of his own people, I don't see how he was worse than Hitler. If we use this hypothesis of killing millions of his own people then shoudnt China's Mao also be included?

Hitler "ruled" for barely 12 years and he did immense damage. Stalin ruled for much longer. I can't imagine if Hitler won the war and ruled for as long as Stalin did, what he'd have done, or how many millions more would have perished. Hitler was far worse imo.
People who try and portray either Hitler or Stalin as 'worse' than the other are usually using them as proxies for right and left, respectively. What's pathetic is that in so doing, they are implicitly identifying as being on the ideological 'side' of one or the other so some degree.

The use of body counts in measuring 'worseness' is, to put it bluntly, idiotic. Body counts are largely a product of circumstance. Hitler and Stalin both happened to have at their commands major industrial powers, large militaries, and tens of millions of subjects. That doesn't mean they were any worse than, say, Saddam Hussein or Augusto Pinochet, who led much smaller nations with less means. And does anyone think Tim McVeigh (body count: 168) was 16.8x worse than Dennis Rader (body count:10)?

It seems obvious that both Hitler and Stalin were murderous individuals who thought nothing of laying waste to millions of lives in furtherance of their ends. People who try and portray one or the other as 'worse' merely beclown themselves in the process.

We can compare the two, however. Stalin was more cruel on a personal level. He could be cruel to loved ones, whereas Hitler was generally just dismissive of someone live Eva Braun. Stalin sometimes cruelly toyed with subordinates. Hitler might rage at his own minions, but it rarely came to more than a dismissal from a post (though he could be brutal when he deemed it prudent - see the Night of Long Knives). Both Hitler and Stalin were horrifically callous to the masses, thinking nothing of enacting policies that doomed millions. One can argue that the utopia Stalin sought (and he genuinely seemed to be a true believer, though he always put himself above the 'workers of the world') was better, at least in theory, than the mass enslavement for the benefit master race that was Hitler's ideal. It's hard to parse out any more rationality to one or the other. Hitler wallowed in rage and fantastic racial superiority pseudoscience of the highest order. Stalin was ragingly paranoid and willing to slaughter masses of devoted communists on the chance that a few might be out to get him.

I fail to see how any of these traits make either Hitler or Stalin morally better than the other.
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Old 11-09-2019, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
43,457 posts, read 19,110,330 times
Reputation: 19391
When we get this one sorted out, we may then move on to other match-ups.

Who Was Worse?
Charles Manson or Ted Bundy?
John Wilkes Booth or Lee Harvey Oswald?

And we need not limit it to moral monsters

Who Would Win In A Fight ?
President Andrew Jackson or Audie Murphy?

Who Was The Better Pilot?
Amelia Earhart or John Denver?
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Old 11-09-2019, 07:14 PM
 
Location: San Diego CA
5,424 posts, read 3,625,220 times
Reputation: 8815
Earhart and Denver both crashed so I guess that one's a wash.
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