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Old 11-30-2019, 06:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ComeCloser View Post
Hardly the pot calling the kettle black.

"He suffered from headaches, and although the wounds Henry sustained to his legs initially healed, ulceration reappeared shortly afterwards, being particularly unpleasant and difficult to manage during 1536–1538. The year of 1536 has been described as an ‘annus horribilis’ for the King:9 his injuries, the loss of his potential heir, the death of his illegitimate son (the Duke of Richmond) and accusations of Anne's adultery made him increasingly unpredictable, irascible and cruel, and prompted him to brutally rid himself of another wife.

By now his ulcers appear to have been bilateral, purulent and seeping, and Henry himself wrote to the Duke of Norfolk, excusing himself from travelling and confessing: ‘to be frank with you, which you must keep to yourself, a humour has fallen into our legs and our physicians advise us not to go far in the heat of the day’. Transient superficial healing of the fistulous communications between abscess cavities and skin inevitably led to episodes of sepsis and bouts of fever: ‘and for ten to twelve days the humours which had no outlet were like to have stifled him, so that he was sometime without speaking, black in the face and in great danger’ (Castillon to Montmorency from the English Court). Henry's physicians attempted to keep these fistulae open to allow drainage of the ‘humours’, often lancing the ulcers with red-hot pokers; a therapy unlikely to have improved the King's ill-temper."

"Henry's legs remained persistently and badly ulcerated, but his overwhelming desire was to safeguard the succession of the Tudor dynasty and the stench did not curtail his quest for an heir. His spirits were eventually buoyed by the birth of his son, Edward VI, and then dashed by the death of his wife, Jane Seymour, 12 days later from puerperal sepsis. Two further marriages followed in quick succession; a political match with the plain Anne of Cleves and a fateful liason with the pretty young Katherine Howard."


I read somewhere that you could smell the odor of the sores before even entering the room Henry was occupying. If what you read was accurate, then Anne was taking the blame for more than just his inability to consummate their marriage.




I did not state that she ever left England, but history states that she was sent to the country (as in rural area away from the King's court). She obviously went to her home.

"Two further marriages followed in quick succession; a political match with the plain Anne of Cleves and a fateful liason with the pretty young Katherine Howard. Both were rapidly despatched, Anne divorced to the country and Katherine to the Tower. "
Neither of those marriages should have happened, and sadly while Anne of Cleves had a lucky escape; poor Katherine Howard did not.

In each case these were young women who had no idea what they were getting (did they ever?), and to great extent both situations reflected poor status of women then, even those who were royal or noble.

https://www.historyextra.com/period/...ecution-ghost/

https://thetudorenthusiast.weebly.co...-jane-rochford

Sad thing is by many accounts Katherine Howard likely wasn't more than 17 when executed. Ironically she and Anne Boleyn were first cousins. More to that wife of George Boleyn (Anne's brother) was one of queen Katherine's ladies and (oddly knowing what happened to Anne) helped arrange the young queens dalliances.

All the things Anne Boleyn had been accused of doing, most were actually done by Katherine Howard, thus the latter knew her goose was cooked.
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Old 11-30-2019, 08:11 AM
 
Location: 49th parallel
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Yes, I think it WAS a case of the pot calling the kettle black, by which I meant that Henry was probably pretty smelly himself and so could hardly afford to complain about Anne's "smelliness." Maybe Anne's smelliness was a European smelliness and not like the English smelliness he was used to, haha.
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:52 AM
 
Location: San Diego CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndcairngorm View Post
Yes, I think it WAS a case of the pot calling the kettle black, by which I meant that Henry was probably pretty smelly himself and so could hardly afford to complain about Anne's "smelliness." Maybe Anne's smelliness was a European smelliness and not like the English smelliness he was used to, haha.
Actually Henry was ahead of his times in the personal hygiene department. He had a bathtub installed at Hampton Court supplied with hot water. Anne’s personal cleanliness routine, if any, are lost to history.
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Old 11-30-2019, 11:25 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
80,505 posts, read 73,477,853 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgsing View Post
I think it was kind of a mail order bride situation. Henry was presented with a portrait of Anne. Apparently there was some artistic license involved in the painting and it did not reflect her true appearance. When Henry did meet her he described her as a “Flanders Mare” and felt so repelled that he did not feel he could consummate the marriage.
Sounds like the pitfalls of Online dating! lol
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgsing View Post
I think it was kind of a mail order bride situation. Henry was presented with a portrait of Anne. Apparently there was some artistic license involved in the painting and it did not reflect her true appearance. When Henry did meet her he described her as a “Flanders Mare” and felt so repelled that he did not feel he could consummate the marriage.
Given Henry VIII's weight, poor health (from a number of issues), and age he likely long had problems marshaling his troops as it were.

Henry was already 45 when he married Jane Seymour, and almost 50 when Anne of Cleves came along. Probably only thing the king got up for at night by that time was to take a slash.

Will give you if Anne of Cleves had "enticed" the king he might have been able to do his duty; but am going with like many men then and since Henry blamed the woman for loss of his hard on when the trouble likely was elsewhere.

It was known that Henry VIII was having impotence issues, but his physical dislike of Anne of Cleves received larger blame.

OTOH Henry was so pleased with young (barely more than a child) Catherine Howard that he managed to consummate that marriage, but afterwards became ill (that leg ulcer again), which caused HM to keep is queen away.
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Old 12-02-2019, 07:03 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PA2UK View Post
Not saying he did say that, but she doesn't have to literally be from Flanders to be called a Flanders mare... it was supposed to be a reference to her size/body type, nothing to do with where she was from.
I'm just saying that there's no historical evidence from anytime close to his lifetime that suggests he said that. It's more along the lines of an urban legend.
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Old 12-02-2019, 07:07 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ComeCloser View Post



I did not state that she ever left England, but history states that she was sent to the country (as in rural area away from the King's court). She obviously went to her home.

"Two further marriages followed in quick succession; a political match with the plain Anne of Cleves and a fateful liason with the pretty young Katherine Howard. Both were rapidly despatched, Anne divorced to the country and Katherine to the Tower. "
I was responding to this statement:
Quote:
If I remember correctly, she made some kind of deal with him and returned home slightly wealthier than she had been when she left.
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:26 PM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
I'm just saying that there's no historical evidence from anytime close to his lifetime that suggests he said that. It's more along the lines of an urban legend.
And like I said, I'm not saying he did say it, I'm just saying the fact that she wasn't from Flanders is moot - whoever wrote that doesn't seem to understand the sentiment of that comment, whether he made it or not.
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Old 12-02-2019, 07:44 PM
 
Location: San Diego CA
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I believe that the Flanders Mare quote was attributed to the Bishop of Salisbury some 100 years after Anne’s death so the validity of that the phrase is suspect.
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Old 12-03-2019, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
47,453 posts, read 38,181,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PA2UK View Post
And like I said, I'm not saying he did say it, I'm just saying the fact that she wasn't from Flanders is moot - whoever wrote that doesn't seem to understand the sentiment of that comment, whether he made it or not.

There's no contemporary (to him) historical evidence that he said it. That's my point. Really my only point. Maybe he said it, or something like it, but if he did we have no evidence from any contemporaries of his that he did.
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