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Old 12-03-2019, 10:23 AM
 
Location: Colorado (PA at heart)
9,163 posts, read 14,047,909 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
There's no contemporary (to him) historical evidence that he said it. That's my point. Really my only point. Maybe he said it, or something like it, but if he did we have no evidence from any contemporaries of his that he did.
Yep, I get that - I'm making a different point.
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Old 12-04-2019, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
47,453 posts, read 38,181,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PA2UK View Post
Yep, I get that - I'm making a different point.
Fair enough - we're making different points - LOL.
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Old 12-04-2019, 08:52 PM
Status: "eyebrow raised" (set 8 days ago)
 
Location: Island off the US mainland
108 posts, read 17,986 times
Reputation: 85
BugsyPal got it right a few pages back... boobage saggage.
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Old 12-05-2019, 06:43 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
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I think it was more than that - I think it was a total culture clash as well as Anne of Cleves not being Henry VIII's physical ideal. I think she may have had a matronly sort of look and prudish, unsophisticated demeanor that wasn't appealing to him at all (especially considering that his next wife was about 17 years old and petite and flirtatious - too much so for her own good).

I have been so glad to see Anne of Cleves get some good press lately - I have always felt like she got shafted in general for, well, probably centuries, with her settlement and subsequently friendly (and wealthy) relationship with Henry VIII - AND HIS CHILDREN - being downplayed or even ignored while the "Flanders mare" vibe - something Henry VIII probably didn't even say - being played up.

You go, girl.

She probably didn't want to be married to that sick, stinking, middle aged egomaniac anyway.
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Old 12-05-2019, 11:23 AM
 
Location: San Diego CA
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And then there’s Ann Boleyn and Catherine Howard. Sorry but Anne of Cleves story is just a little boring by comparison.
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Old 12-05-2019, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
47,453 posts, read 38,181,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgsing View Post
And then there’s Ann Boleyn and Catherine Howard. Sorry but Anne of Cleves story is just a little boring by comparison.
I don't think any of these women's stories are boring. In fact, I find them riveting. And I think that Anne of Cleves escaped quite nicely. Good for her!

But I get what you mean - these two women are the ones whose heads rolled. That's pretty spectacular. Catherine Howard must have been a complete idiot. And I have a feeling that Anne Boleyn wasn't a particularly nice person, not that she deserved to have her head chopped off but still...she didn't "deserve" to be the Queen of England either in my opinion.
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Old 12-05-2019, 01:47 PM
Status: "eyebrow raised" (set 8 days ago)
 
Location: Island off the US mainland
108 posts, read 17,986 times
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Holbein was a genius, and supposedly prettied her up. Other portraits suggest a less pleasing countenance (a nose that could cut roast beef) , though it's hard to tell which came from real life and which were based on Holbein's work.

Of course, Hank Tudor 8 was no Adonis himself, to put it mildly.
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Old 12-05-2019, 04:35 PM
 
12,471 posts, read 5,591,620 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cromulent View Post
Holbein was a genius, and supposedly prettied her up. Other portraits suggest a less pleasing countenance (a nose that could cut roast beef) , though it's hard to tell which came from real life and which were based on Holbein's work.

Of course, Hank Tudor 8 was no Adonis himself, to put it mildly.
Something terrible happened to Henry when he reached middle age. As a young man, it's said he was quite handsome, fit, athletic and dashing. He was a devout Catholic and very loyal to the church, also good husband to Catherine of Aragon. Well, about as good as one could hope for in those days. It's almost like something snapped, not just because he wanted a male heir. He ate himself into morbid obesity, became an ugly tyrant with little concern for peoples lives having as many as 72,000 people executed for various reasons. He didn't give a hoot if the church he was loyal to and baptized in condemned him to hell. One rumor had it on his death bed he asked for a Catholic priest to give him his last rights, but I don't think that's ever been proven.

As far as his initial relationship with Anne of Cleves, it didn't help the matter that she didn't speak English and he didn't know any more than a few words in German. They couldn't even communicate with each other without an interpreter.

Last edited by marino760; 12-05-2019 at 05:01 PM..
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Old 12-05-2019, 05:02 PM
Status: "eyebrow raised" (set 8 days ago)
 
Location: Island off the US mainland
108 posts, read 17,986 times
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If she looked like Claudia Schiffer or Katarina Witt, he would have picked up German in weeks.

English is after all a Germanic language. Lots of cognates.
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Old 12-05-2019, 05:17 PM
 
689 posts, read 267,096 times
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Imagine an extremely powerful world leader, who could marry anyone he wanted to, being shown a thoroughly photoshopped painting of a politically connected young virgin. And his trusted lawyer says "Yowza, you'll love this one."
He enters into an unbreakable contract (cuz they'll lob an army against him otherwise) before he sees her in person.

He's already in a bad mood cuz his manhood is gone south and when he finally gets a good look at her she flinches when he gets close (the "surprise" visit) and his manhood is a sad puppy who starts to blame her for everything.

When it comes to painting portraits the customer (parents of subject) won't be happy with realism (won't pay IOW), they want 50% prettier than reality. So reality is: add 30 pounds, probably hint of double chin (or more than a hint, a shout), maybe one eye slightly lazy when she gets tired. She doesn't speak the language, doesn't know what flirting is, maybe religious so no petting or foreplay, she's scared outta her skin and her bridegroom smells funny (she may think he has syphilis which she can get and die). Recipe for disaster.

I photographed portraits for a living. If I made women look 30 lbs thinner and 10 years younger I made money. Their friends could still recognize them, just thought they were "photogenic." Good portrait painters rose to the top if they did the same thing. Imagine how fat Henry VIII really was when you look at his official portraits which Henry liked enough to keep around (not destroy). He would have been grossly fat...and still be able to marry whomever he wanted to.
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