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Old 11-28-2019, 09:21 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
80,350 posts, read 73,349,842 times
Reputation: 79498

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Quote:
Russia, never rich in culture and intellect, had what little it possessed seriously diminished in one of the great "brain drains" in history.
I don't entirely agree with this. The thing is, that due to the way the government has always stifled creativity, we'll never know how rich in intellect Russia is or was at any time. But I've met absolutely staggeringly brilliant people who came out before 1917, via China, and brilliant and creative people more recently, who still live there, and want to continue contributing to their region, their society, though sometimes Moscow crushes their efforts.

Quote:
This malevolent history harks back at least to such Czarist era author and poets as Nikolay Danilevsky (1822-1885), Alexander Pushkin (author of, among other poems, To the Slanderers of Russia) and Georgy Fedotov.
Could you elaborate on how this "malevolent history" harks back to Pushkin, etc.? Can you give us a link or a synopsis of what P. said in "To the Slanderers of Russia"? What malevolence, exactly? I'm not getting your (or your author's) drift. Do you mean, Russia's need to assert itself, and dominate? Don't some people in the West, East and developing world say that about the US?

Russia desperately needs to diversify its economy, I agree with you, there. It's always been weak on consumer goods, for one thing; if it developed that sector, it could export consumer goods that would be more affordable than what North America and Western Europe produce. It would have a competitive edge in that respect, if it could keep good quality control over its production.

It's not just fear of the West, but also fear of its own nationalities. This leads to more stifling of talent, which in turn stifles economic growth.
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Old 11-28-2019, 09:23 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
80,350 posts, read 73,349,842 times
Reputation: 79498
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Not exactly.
Peter the Great wanted it.

Some other Russian political leaders and cultural icons desired it.
But some - did not. Not at all, considering "Europe" to be "decadent" and heading to the "dead end," while Russia has its own unique way of development, that shouldn't be "derailed."
And this philosophical split within the society, this endless argument between "Slavophiles" and "Westerners" goes back deep in history, probably even to pre-Peter's times.
"Westernizers", they're called. What's the term in Russian, remind me please?
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Old 11-28-2019, 09:31 PM
 
15,573 posts, read 14,102,650 times
Reputation: 7071
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
"Westernizers", they're called. What's the term in Russian, remind me please?

"Западники." (Precisely as "Westerners" - that's why I translated it straight this way.)
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Old 11-28-2019, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Russia
363 posts, read 57,289 times
Reputation: 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
I just finished reading Putinism: Russia and Its Future with the West, by Walter Laqueur.

I submit that Russia's main "contribution" to the West and civilization was the export of its best people and genes to other places that didn't want to stifle them at best, kill them at worst.

I'll admit to more than a passing interest in the subject, because myself, and a substantial portion of U.S. Jews, including some of my closest friends and business colleagues have ancestry from the Czarist Russian empire, as it existed in 1914. 1914 was when the Guns of August erupted, bringing an end to La Belle Epoque. As a result of the total destructiveness of Czarist culture, the best and brightest of Russia are here in the U.S., Canada and Australia. Russia, never rich in culture and intellect, had what little it possessed seriously diminished in one of the great "brain drains" in history.

The book is a fascinating exploration of the reasons that Russia, whether under the Czars, the former Soviet Union or post-Soviet iterations has never been “able to get its act together.” Russia's default mode is towards entropy or chaos of one kind or another, with a rich history of alcohol abuse, xenophobia, and zapadophobia (fear of the West). This has resulted in an ability to form alliances or relationships with other countries that are not contentious; unless they are in a dominating or controlling mode.

This malevolent history harks back at least to such Czarist era author and poets as Nikolay Danilevsky (1822-1885), Alexander Pushkin (author of, among other poems, To the Slanderers of Russia) and Georgy Fedotov. The core belief is of Russia being a “great” country, an empire. Russia is not content to be a country with a comfortable standard of living, but not much dominant power. Russia has an unjustifiably high opinion of itself and what it is entitled to.

Around 1990-1, there was great expectation for Russia to democratize, to become a “normal” country, a member of the community of nations. Laquer makes a great case that this was a triumph of hope over experience, much like a third marriage after a succession of divorces.

Among other shortcomings, Russia lacks a real economy. Instead it is a gas station, a petrostate. Laquer expresses little hope for its economy if oil prices remained in the $50 per barrel area.

More or less accidentally I fell into reading a lot about Russia. During the early summer I read The Orientalist: Solving the Mystery of a Strange and Dangerous Life by Tom Reiss. This book was ostensibly about a deliberately obscure author, Lev Nussenbaum, writing under other names including Mohammed Essad Bey, who was born in Baku, Azerbaijan, and as the antebellum World War I falls apart, flees to Constantinople, then Berlin, and after a short period in New York City, to Vienna and after the Anschluss to Positano, Italy, where he dies as age 35. Reading that book motivated me to read Stalin: The Career Of A Fanatic by Mohammed Essad Bey. Bey (Nussenbaum), writing in1931, makes observations about Russia eerily similar to those of Walter Laquer concerning Russia’s imperviousness to Western ideas of liberalization.

Some international theorists have postulated that the West lost a historic opportunity by not integrating Russia into NATO, and expanding NATO’s reach to the Baltic states. Walter Laquer dismissing these as wishful thinking.

Nowadays, just as in the Czarist and Communist era, a good portion of the young people want to leave. The upshot of this cannot be good. One of the largest countries of the world, in terms of land mass, continues to sink into the abyss.

Does anyone see any hope for any of this to change?
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
There is not any hope and never will be. Those people have always excuses for their state of being and it never have anything to do with their own actions. Most people are poor and meanwhile Putin is one of the richest people in the world and Moscow has 68 billionaires. People are happy because they hear that others fear Russia. It does not matter that wages are low, that average people cannot afford lots things that are obvious in the west, and alcoholism is considered normal thing. What matters is that someone somewhere might fear Russia. That is absolutely not excusable how country with so much resources and potential is so poor. Even though they are the most populous. country in Europe, their economy as a whole is even behind Italy, much smaller, not even that rich country by european standarts.
It does not matter what system it is that mentality will always stay. It will definitely not change in our lifetime. When someone is smart and educated it is only natural to him that he would want to leave that country. Every german scientist after war wanted to land in America and not in Russia. To change that mentality would require accepting the fact that western life is a better life and that would be unacceptable for most russians. On the other hand, the propaganda is immense there so it is easy for us from democratic countries to say but we can't imagine how we would behave if we were under constant influence of propaganda from young age. But still after so many years of being clearly robbed by your own governing band people should clearly see through this charade.
Funny to read, honestly. You absolutely do not understand what you write because you believe everything that is presented to you in books by different engaged Western scribblers. In order to understand what is happening here you need to live here. I not preacher Putin's, and me much not likes that is happening now in Russia, but simply the that write in Western press on 90% not true. The West is afraid and has always been afraid of Russia because it has never understood and will not understand, and therefore whoever comes in Putin's place, he will still be a "tyrant" and "oppressor of millions" if he does not lick the ass of the West.
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Old 11-28-2019, 10:21 PM
 
Location: Preussen
407 posts, read 113,958 times
Reputation: 307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimogor View Post
Funny to read, honestly. You absolutely do not understand what you write because you believe everything that is presented to you in books by different engaged Western scribblers. In order to understand what is happening here you need to live here. I not preacher Putin's, and me much not likes that is happening now in Russia, but simply the that write in Western press on 90% not true. The West is afraid and has always been afraid of Russia because it has never understood and will not understand, and therefore whoever comes in Putin's place, he will still be a "tyrant" and "oppressor of millions" if he does not lick the ass of the West.
Man, numbers do not lie. You clearly should have higher standard of living. And Moscow is the city with second highest number of billionaires in the world, yet majority of people are poor by western european standarts. Clearly something does not work there with those in charge.
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Old 11-28-2019, 11:07 PM
 
Location: Russia
363 posts, read 57,289 times
Reputation: 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
Man, numbers do not lie. You clearly should have higher standard of living. And Moscow is the city with second highest number of billionaires in the world, yet majority of people are poor by western european standarts. Clearly something does not work there with those in charge.

The lines for iPhone 11 tell my eyes the opposite.
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Old Yesterday, 12:19 AM
 
1,064 posts, read 305,233 times
Reputation: 2885
Just to play the devils advocate:
“The bright and intelligent westerners” crazed by their religious zealotry inflicted the dark ages and inquisition in Europe- Russia- not so much.

Russian literature on par or above the West- mostly France and England

Russian music - on par and quite often above the West ( German, French, Italian)

Russians pretty much invented independently the most important technologies: radio, telegraph, flying, rocket science, etc
The core of chemistry is based on the periodic table discovered by Mendeleev from Russia.

They made remarkable achievements in medicine- Pavlov’s dogs, etc
( Most are not aware, but every modern surgery in US is based on a Russian tech from the 50th- the article below is biased and lacks the details and the name of people who officially obtained the tech from Russia, but it gives you an idea)

https://www.nytimes.com/1984/05/13/b...d-history.html


“Stupid” Russians just after the most devastating war in a history after losing more then 21 million people- became the first nation to start a Space exploration.

I can keep going- but hope you get the idea.

If the book you are basing your unfounded claims would be written by a Russian researcher- I bet your post would be closer to a reality...

Last edited by Nik4me; Yesterday at 12:31 AM..
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Old Yesterday, 12:25 AM
 
1,064 posts, read 305,233 times
Reputation: 2885
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
Man, numbers do not lie. You clearly should have higher standard of living. And Moscow is the city with second highest number of billionaires in the world, yet majority of people are poor by western european standarts. Clearly something does not work there with those in charge.
Why focus on Russia?
80% of the world population can not afford the lifestyle of the few western nations.
Hell, the 20% percent of American children live below the poverty level, behind only Mexico with 25% - the highest level of children’s poverty in the world- we are number 2!

Does it bother you, that in the US we have a mailman collecting non perishable food supplies a few times a year? For our own hungry people?- It bothers me...
How is the capitalism working out for these kids and people here in the US?
Using your own words:
“Clearly, something does not work here ( my substitution for your “there”) with those in charge”

Last edited by Nik4me; Yesterday at 12:34 AM..
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Old Yesterday, 01:09 AM
 
7,052 posts, read 6,810,056 times
Reputation: 3300
The Venera Project probably do more for space rocket tech, and probe landing tech than anything NASA done.

NASA recently landed probes on Mars. I always wondered how they get it down so perfectly. The planet is so far away. The fastest signals via light are slow at that distance. Wont give you enough time to adjust at that speed of information transfer.

Must have picked up a lot from the Russians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venera

Landing a probe on another planet back then is way more cooler and more significant than landing a man on the Moon.
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Old Yesterday, 01:13 AM
 
7,052 posts, read 6,810,056 times
Reputation: 3300
Oh, the AK47, and that Russian style of ice hockey
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