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Old Yesterday, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Preussen
413 posts, read 113,958 times
Reputation: 307

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimogor View Post
I was talking about GDP calculated by PPP, not PPP per capita.

Lists of countries by gross domestic product, calculated on purchasing power parity (GDP PPP) — a list in which countries are arranged according to the size of gross domestic product, that is, the value of all final goods and services sold in the economy in one year (in dollars) obtained by conversion at purchasing power parity (PPP), that is, adjusted for price level in the economy (and therefore the purchasing power of the currency). Lists are given in the versions of the International monetary Fund and the world Bank.

Lists of countries by GDP (PPP) in billions of us dollars

1. IMF. The first table shows GDP (PPP) as calculated by the International monetary Fund. The table shows the 190 member States of the IMF, as well as the Hong Kong Special administrative region (part of China) and the Republic of China (Taiwan), which is not a member of the IMF. There are no data from IMF member States on Somalia, which has actually collapsed; there are also no data on Syria and Venezuela, for which the IMF does not currently estimate GDP.

2. WB. The second table shows GDP (PPP) data for 193 countries from the world Bank.

When analyzing these tables, it should be borne in mind that countries use different systems of national accounts. Australia, Canada, USA, Mexico, Korea, Iceland, Norway, Switzerland, New Zealand, South Africa and all EU countries have already switched to the new 2008 SNA prepared under the auspices of the UN, the European Commission, OECD, IMF and the world Bank. Since the end of 2014, all OECD countries calculate GDP according to the 2008 SNA, except Turkey, which plans to recalculate from 2015, and Chile and Japan, which intend to switch to the new methodology from 2016[1].

In 2016, Rosstat presented Russia's GDP for 2015 in accordance with the new international SNA-2008, and also recalculated the GDP for 2014.

The main difference between the 2008 SNA is that it additionally takes into account intellectual property, derivative financial instruments, R & d costs and armaments. Thus, the addition of new accounting items leads to a significant increase in macroeconomic indicators (including GDP), especially for countries with highly developed technologies. This may serve as a justification for the additional issue of cash [2].


List of the IMF https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft...PPGDP&grp=0&a=

2017 (billion $)
1.China - 23157
2.USA - 19519
3.India - 9583
4.Japan - 5420
5.Germany - 4176
6.Russia - 4036

2018 (billion $)
1.China - 25279
2.USA - 20580
3.India - 10485
4.Japan - 5597
5.Germany - 4343
6.Russia - 4227

List of the WB https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.PP.CD

2017 (billion $)
1.China - 23267
2.USA - 19485
3.India - 9597
4.Japan - 5320
5.Germany - 4346
6.Russia - 3784

2018 (billion $)
1.China - 25362
2.USA - 20494
3.India - 10498
4.Japan - 5415
5.Germany - 4456
6.Russia - 4051

When we talk about stanard of living then we must compare countries per capita. Otherwise it does not make sense. Do you think for example that standard of living in India for average person comes even close to standard of living of people in Japan or Germany? You know it does not.
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Old Yesterday, 09:21 AM
 
Location: Russia
366 posts, read 57,289 times
Reputation: 189
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
Well every country has poorer, less prosperous areas. Those in the west too. Deep south in United States. East Germany, South Italy, Andalusia in Spain, For UK I think Wales. East Germany suffered from communism like all former communists countries and it is not that easy to even them with west Germany. But for example infrastructure like highways is better there than in west germany because it is all new.
But we must compare poorest Germany regions with poorest Russia regions. And how does Russia look then in Siberia for example? Definitely much worse than east Germany. United States has double that much people as Russia and Japan also comes close to Russia and has pretty much no resources, so it is not an excuse in the case of providing good standard of living for its citizens.

As for those russians with german background. No. There was not any nostalgia about returning to their homeland. They had usually some partial german ancestry, which they simply used in order to get a better life. The same was with Poles who had some german ancestry. There were 100 percent russians. Cultural link to Germany was all gone. They could not speak the language, there was nothing german about them, They were assimilate into russian culture in 100 percent and you would not differ them from other russians. They just used their opportunity for better life an good for them. Their descendants will assimilate into german population.

And I know what you say about your father's mates being already dead despite young age. My uncle worked with some russians. He is 56 now. All died in their early to mid 50s. Alcohol "culture" is a big problem in eastern Europe but it seem russians take it to the extreme.
All your words are demagogy. As I said, you absolutely do not own truthful information about life in Russia. All your knowledge is based on the facts presented to you by Western media. But, these facts have nothing to do with reality. I live in Siberia, for example. And in order to speak specifically about something, it is necessary to save concrete indicators. Let's compare what interests you, I will answer you with pleasure.
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Old Yesterday, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Preussen
413 posts, read 113,958 times
Reputation: 307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimogor View Post
All your words are demagogy. As I said, you absolutely do not own truthful information about life in Russia. All your knowledge is based on the facts presented to you by Western media. But, these facts have nothing to do with reality. I live in Siberia, for example. And in order to speak specifically about something, it is necessary to save concrete indicators. Let's compare what interests you, I will answer you with pleasure.
My words are demagogy? I think yours are considering that you were trying to present stanard of living in Russia as better than many of those in west by using some overall gdp rankings but not gdp per capita rankings or human development index or curruption index which any of those would prove you wrong. Do you really believe someone will believe that standard of living in India for average person is better than standard of lving in Japan or Germany according to your reasoning? Noone will believe such thing.

Last edited by WestPreussen; Yesterday at 09:40 AM..
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Old Yesterday, 11:03 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
80,368 posts, read 73,349,842 times
Reputation: 79513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nik4me View Post
Apologies for a long post and typos- on the phone

Where does Russia must go “a long way”?

As Americans we are born to believe that we are #1- so we don’t have to think for ourselves- it is dangerous for our beloved country.

It is naive, if not delusional to think that everybody wants to live/ be like us.
A lot of Americans don’t want to live like we do now anymore- the small number of the well traveled and enlightened
It's not about living like us. It's simply about developing the economy enough so that workers can have some disposable income. Look at how auto workers and other unskilled laborers in the US were catapulted to the middle class by the union movement. Factory workers in Russia never had that QOL, although in the Soviet system they did have vacations that were paid for by their employer, and families were able to save to buy a car, mainly by having side gigs. But it's about not having to count pennies on a weekly basis and grow some of your own food and can your own vegetables, even on a university professor.'s salary. People still have what in the US were called "victory gardens" during WWII. It's about growing the economy and developing light industry, so that people can have a few consumer goods in the home that make life easier. I never saw a household in Russia that had a vacuum cleaner, for example, let alone a food blender or electric mixer, ready-made plastic containers for leftover food, and a few simple things like that.

It's about developing the economy, so that there can be better infrastructure, and more of it. (Fiber optic cable, anyone?) Putin did some of this in his early terms (when oil prices were high), building roads where there were only rivers used for transport and transit, adding railroad lines also where all traffic was only riverine, adding hydro power here and there, with an eye to eventually spurring industry in those areas, but also to provide enough power, so residents could have A/C in the stifling summers. (This was only achieved in some key regions, though.) You have no idea how underdeveloped Russia is, and keep in mind that it's a staggeringly vast country, with many remote areas and geographic challenges.

Part of the reason the economy isn't doing better, is the crisis decade of the 1990's. People's salaries/wages have finally recovered to pre-crisis levels, which means--still a relatively spartan existence, though not marked by outright hardship. Also, the rise and fall of the price of oil on the global market hobbles efforts. Still, some people in some of the Far Eastern regions joke, that "if only the Japanese had won the war and taken over our region", the QOL would be completely different. Or, "we should let the Canadians take over, then we'd be living a normal life". (Canada is a similarly northern country, like Russia, so the feeling is, that the Canadians know how to get things done in The North.) IOW, there's the sense that in spite of the challenges conditions in Russia present, free-enterprise systems would do a much better job of bringing the country closer to par with other industrialized nations.

That is what "Russia has a long way to go" means to me. Have you ever been to Russia, outside the two or three big tourism cities?
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Old Yesterday, 11:20 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
80,368 posts, read 73,349,842 times
Reputation: 79513
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
Well every country has poorer, less prosperous areas. Those in the west too. Deep south in United States. East Germany, South Italy, Andalusia in Spain, For UK I think Wales. East Germany suffered from communism like all former communists countries and it is not that easy to even them with west Germany. But for example infrastructure like highways is better there than in west germany because it is all new.
But we must compare poorest Germany regions with poorest Russia regions. And how does Russia look then in Siberia for example? Definitely much worse than east Germany. United States has double russia's population and Japan also comes close to Russia and has pretty much no resources, Germany with 83 million people is also a big country, so having big population is not an excuse in the case of providing good standard of living for its citizens.

As for those russians with german background. No. There was not any nostalgia about returning to their homeland. They had usually some partial german ancestry, which they simply used in order to get a better life. The same was with Poles who had some german ancestry. Those people were 100 percent russians. Cultural link to Germany was all gone. They could not speak the language, there was nothing german about them, They were assimilated into russian culture in 100 percent and you would not differ them from other russians. They just used their opportunity for better life and good for them. Their descendants will assimilate into german population. You must also remember that Russia is not an european union's member, therefore it is not that easy for them to immigrate to Germany or England like that is for Poles. There are already a lot of them in Germany and United States with restrictions. And there would be surely many more of them if you completely abolished restrictions in immigration for them.

And I know what you say about your father's mates being already dead despite young age. My uncle worked with some russians when he lived in Germany. He is 56 now. All died in their early to mid 50s. Alcohol "culture" is a big problem in eastern Europe but it seem russians take it to the extreme.
The bolded isn't an equal comparison. East Germany's more remote towns are still close to big cities, compared to Siberia. Distances in East Germany are smaller, and therefore isolation is easier to overcome; it's easier to bring development to areas in need of it. It's far easier simply to get around, to travel between villages and towns.

The climate between the bolded regions also isn't comparable. East Germany doesn't have permafrost.It's much more expensive to build anything over permafrost. Compare the scale of the two regions in terms of square miles or kilometers involved, and the climate zones involved. You'll see, that the comparison becomes almost meaningless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimogor;
I live in Siberia, for example
. Where do you live, Zim? What part of Siberia, if you don't want to mention the city?
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Old Yesterday, 01:05 PM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
4,231 posts, read 2,427,813 times
Reputation: 2891
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
Well every country has poorer, less prosperous areas. Those in the west too. Deep south in United States. East Germany, South Italy, Andalusia in Spain, For UK I think Wales. East Germany suffered from communism like all former communists countries and it is not that easy to even them with west Germany. But for example infrastructure like highways is better there than in west germany because it is all new.
But we must compare poorest Germany regions with poorest Russia regions. And how does Russia look then in Siberia for example? Definitely much worse than east Germany. United States has double russia's population and Japan also comes close to Russia and has pretty much no resources, Germany with 83 million people is also a big country, so having big population is not an excuse in the case of providing good standard of living for its citizens.

As for those russians with german background. No. There was not any nostalgia about returning to their homeland. They had usually some partial german ancestry, which they simply used in order to get a better life. The same was with Poles who had some german ancestry. Those people were 100 percent russians. Cultural link to Germany was all gone. They could not speak the language, there was nothing german about them, They were assimilated into russian culture in 100 percent and you would not differ them from other russians. They just used their opportunity for better life and good for them. Their descendants will assimilate into german population. You must also remember that Russia is not an european union's member, therefore it is not that easy for them to immigrate to Germany or England like that is for Poles. There are already a lot of them in Germany and United States with restrictions. And there would be surely many more of them if you completely abolished restrictions in immigration for them.

And I know what you say about your father's mates being already dead despite young age. My uncle worked with some russians when he lived in Germany. He is 56 now. All died in their early to mid 50s. Alcohol "culture" is a big problem in eastern Europe but it seem russians take it to the extreme.
What and you don't think Russia wasn't communist? The reason I bring up East Germany is because with West Germany, they had the capital and investments in theory to fully absorb the east to western standards, but that didn't happen, so how do you expect Russia that doesn't have that capital to turn Russia around and develop it over night? Unless you want Russia's leaders to pull the citizens kicking and screaming similar to what Peter I and Stalin had to do, and in some ways Putin has done the same, such as the pension reform, which is extremely unpopular but ultimately necessary. For now that capital is being spent on developing the major city centers such as Moscow and St. Petersburg, but over time that development will radiate outwards.

And speaking of Siberia, it's not some sh*thole that only beggars live in, it has some of the highest living standards out side of Moscow and St. Petersburg and some of the fastest growing cities in all of Russia. And if you look around Siberia is developing, it just takes time.

Novosibirsk
https://www.google.com/maps/@54.9914...7i13312!8i6656

Krasnoyarsk
https://www.google.com/maps/@55.9985...7i13312!8i6656

Omsk
https://www.google.com/maps/@55.0031...7i13312!8i6656

And even then the village life is slowly improving too.
https://www.google.com/maps/@55.7148...7i13312!8i6656

That is of course not to say that extreme poverty doesn't exist, nor that there could be massive improvements made on the current rate of development, but to act like it's a huge dumpster can that is not improving, and that only Moscow sees improvements is disingenuous.

I do remember reading a recent article where they stipulate that Russia is having a hard time spending their money that is budgeted out for development due to the fear that they will get snared up in corruption scandals since the Russian government has started paying closer attention to how their money is being spent. So I will definitely concede to the fact that Russia right now doesn't have a capital issue, but rather one of corruption.

And going back to the Russian Germans, if there was no "nostalgia" why did they pick Germany over say the US, UK, France etc. These Russians moved to Germany for similar reasons why Russian Jews moved to Israel.
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Old Yesterday, 03:46 PM
 
13,416 posts, read 4,946,491 times
Reputation: 5550
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestPreussen View Post
There is not any hope and never will be. Those people have always excuses for their state of being and it never have anything to do with their own actions. Most people are poor and meanwhile Putin is one of the richest people in the world and Moscow has 68 billionaires. People are happy because they hear that others fear Russia. It does not matter that wages are low, that average people cannot afford lots things that are obvious in the west, and alcoholism is considered normal thing. What matters is that someone somewhere might fear Russia. That is absolutely not excusable how country with so much resources and potential is so poor. Even though they are the most populous. country in Europe, their economy as a whole is even behind Italy, much smaller, not even that rich country by european standarts.
It does not matter what system it is that mentality will always stay. It will definitely not change in our lifetime. When someone is smart and educated it is only natural to him that he would want to leave that country. Every german scientist after war wanted to land in America and not in Russia. To change that mentality would require accepting the fact that western life is a better life and that would be unacceptable for most russians. On the other hand, the propaganda is immense there so it is easy for us from democratic countries to say but we can't imagine how we would behave if we were under constant influence of propaganda from young age. But still after so many years of being clearly robbed by your own governing band people should clearly see through this charade.
Every country has as much potential as any other country. Resources has nothing to do with it. That's a medieval mindset.
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Old Yesterday, 04:22 PM
 
15,585 posts, read 14,106,208 times
Reputation: 7071
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimogor View Post
All your words are demagogy. As I said, you absolutely do not own truthful information about life in Russia. All your knowledge is based on the facts presented to you by Western media. But, these facts have nothing to do with reality. I live in Siberia, for example. And in order to speak specifically about something, it is necessary to save concrete indicators. Let's compare what interests you, I will answer you with pleasure.

Oh who cares. When it comes to Russia, as you've said earlier - "pay and repent, pay and repent." Pay and repent in front of the "mighty West" (and those who joined it, or so they think.)

That's what it is all about for people like W.P.

And they are utterly frustrated when it's STILL not happening.

Because ( according to THEIR understanding) it was supposed already to happen yesterday... no, the day before yesterday, and may be like two weeks before.

Meanwhile, to add to their frustration - here it goes..


https://www.city-data.com/forum/56748113-post9301.html


And since it's a History forum, not "Politics" one, I'd advise these people to look deeper back in history. They might get their answers right there.

I'll fight the temptation to send them to "Religion" section or theology in general, because this would shatter their belief that Russia is the source of all evil in the world even more)))

Last edited by erasure; Yesterday at 04:37 PM..
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Old Yesterday, 04:31 PM
 
15,585 posts, read 14,106,208 times
Reputation: 7071
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
It's not about living like us. It's simply about developing the economy enough so that workers can have some disposable income. Look at how auto workers and other unskilled laborers in the US were catapulted to the middle class by the union movement. Factory workers in Russia never had that QOL, although in the Soviet system they did have vacations that were paid for by their employer, and families were able to save to buy a car, mainly by having side gigs. But it's about not having to count pennies on a weekly basis and grow some of your own food and can your own vegetables, even on a university professor.'s salary. People still have what in the US were called "victory gardens" during WWII. It's about growing the economy and developing light industry, so that people can have a few consumer goods in the home that make life easier. I never saw a household in Russia that had a vacuum cleaner, for example, let alone a food blender or electric mixer, ready-made plastic containers for leftover food, and a few simple things like that.

It's about developing the economy, so that there can be better infrastructure, and more of it. (Fiber optic cable, anyone?) Putin did some of this in his early terms (when oil prices were high), building roads where there were only rivers used for transport and transit, adding railroad lines also where all traffic was only riverine, adding hydro power here and there, with an eye to eventually spurring industry in those areas, but also to provide enough power, so residents could have A/C in the stifling summers. (This was only achieved in some key regions, though.) You have no idea how underdeveloped Russia is, and keep in mind that it's a staggeringly vast country, with many remote areas and geographic challenges.

Part of the reason the economy isn't doing better, is the crisis decade of the 1990's. People's salaries/wages have finally recovered to pre-crisis levels, which means--still a relatively spartan existence, though not marked by outright hardship. Also, the rise and fall of the price of oil on the global market hobbles efforts. Still, some people in some of the Far Eastern regions joke, that "if only the Japanese had won the war and taken over our region", the QOL would be completely different. Or, "we should let the Canadians take over, then we'd be living a normal life". (Canada is a similarly northern country, like Russia, so the feeling is, that the Canadians know how to get things done in The North.) IOW, there's the sense that in spite of the challenges conditions in Russia present, free-enterprise systems would do a much better job of bringing the country closer to par with other industrialized nations.

That is what "Russia has a long way to go" means to me. Have you ever been to Russia, outside the two or three big tourism cities?

Ruth, some of them have disposable income. Some of them - do not.

In current Russian economic system this is unimportant, really. Such matters ( as disposable income for workers) is a by-product of the main idea, and that is the acquirement of as much capital as possible for the ruling class, giving it that extra-cushion, if the West will try to unseat them.

THAT's what it is all about.
But since it gives the sense of national security to the rest of Russians ( and protection from predatory practice of the West ( US in particular,)) - the rest of the Russian population puts up with Putin's economic system and lack of aforementioned "disposable income" for many.


P.S. Thanks for the reminder about the "Westernizers"
Now can we tie all that has been said here to History somehow, or all our posts will be deleted here)))
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Old Yesterday, 04:52 PM
 
8,422 posts, read 7,606,489 times
Reputation: 6881
They've been under embargo and export controls since the onset of the Cold War.

Cold War embargoes and sanctions

I would not call them a gas station as they had limited export markets, mainly in the Warsaw Pact, Cuba, and other, and energy is an input to the residential and commercial sectors domestically, not an end in itself. I would classify their economy as on a permanent war footing consuming 15-20 percent.
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