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Old Yesterday, 05:20 PM
Status: "Trump Resistance - The (establishment) Empire Strikes Back" (set 24 days ago)
 
Location: New York Area
17,525 posts, read 6,848,578 times
Reputation: 13492

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lchoro View Post
They've been under embargo and export controls since the onset of the Cold War.

Cold War embargoes and sanctions

I would not call them a gas station as they had limited export markets, mainly in the Warsaw Pact, Cuba, and other, and energy is an input to the residential and commercial sectors domestically, not an end in itself. I would classify their economy as on a permanent war footing consuming 15-20 percent.
The key to the end of sanctions is in Russia's pocket. All that they need to do is stop stirring the pot both in the near-abroad and throughout the world. They do not need to be a great power.
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Old Yesterday, 05:34 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
80,375 posts, read 73,368,452 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Ruth, some of them have disposable income. Some of them - do not.
I know. But there are too many who should be living fairly comfortably at this point, those who would be "middle class" in the West, whose lives haven't changed for the better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure;
In current Russian economic system this is unimportant, really. Such matters ( as disposable income for workers) is a by-product of the main idea, and that is the acquirement of as much capital as possible for the ruling class, giving it that extra-cushion, if the West will try to unseat them.

THAT's what it is all about.
But since it gives the sense of national security to the rest of Russians ( and protection from predatory practice of the West ( US in particular,)) - the rest of the Russian population puts up with Putin's economic system and lack of aforementioned "disposable income" for many.


P.S. Thanks for the reminder about the "Westernizers"
Now can we tie all that has been said here to History somehow, or all our posts will be deleted here)))
I'm talking about what needs to be done, what should be done in Russia, not what the people in charge want for themselves. I'm talking about what would be done, if Russia were a normal country. Remember, my post was in response to someone arguing that people seem to think Russians should "live like us". I was explaining, no, that's not the point at all. (Although some Russians would like that.) It's about developing the country in various ways, so that people can simply have a more comfortable, dignified life on a basic level. The poster I was responding to has no idea how underdeveloped the country is.

Speaking of "predatory practices of the West, US in particular", I overheard conversations to that effect in the early 90's. Specifically about the US coming in and cleaning out Russia's natural resources. The ironic thing about that, was that at the time, US companies in the Far East (where these conversations took place) were trying to SELL products to Russia, not get resource extraction contracts (other than joint-venture fishing). It was the Koreans and the Japanese, right next door (the US is an ocean away, after all; a very large ocean), who were mowing down the taiga in the area (in some cases--illegally), and going after other resources. And interestingly, after everyone East and West got oil contracts, eventually most were run out of the country, with the main winners allowed to stay being Canada and the US.

Putin does a lot of grandstanding and promoting of the Cold War image of the US as the enemy, but behind the scenes, he actually favors the US as a business partner. He just doesn't tell the public that.
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Old Yesterday, 05:50 PM
 
15,597 posts, read 14,106,208 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
I know. But there are too many who should be living fairly comfortably at this point, those who would be "middle class" in the West, whose lives haven't changed for the better.
I'm talking about what needs to be done, what should be done in Russia, not what the people in charge want for themselves. I'm talking about what would be done, if Russia were a normal country. Remember, my post was in response to someone arguing that people seem to think Russians should "live like us". I was explaining, no, that's not the point at all. (Although some Russians would like that.) It's about developing the country in various ways, so that people can simply have a more comfortable, dignified life on a basic level. The poster I was responding to has no idea how underdeveloped the country is.

Speaking of "predatory practices of the West, US in particular", I overheard conversations to that effect in the early 90's. Specifically about the US coming in and cleaning out Russia's natural resources. The ironic thing about that, was that at the time, US companies in the Far East (where these conversations took place) were trying to SELL products to Russia, not get resource extraction contracts (other than joint-venture fishing). It was the Koreans and the Japanese, right next door (the US is an ocean away, after all; a very large ocean), who were mowing down the taiga in the area (in some cases--illegally), and going after other resources. And interestingly, after everyone East and West got oil contracts, eventually most were run out of the country, with the main winners allowed to stay being Canada and the US.

The US predatory practice was/is all about pulling the banking/money strings via IMF and redesigning Russian economy to fit American financial/geopolitical interests. (Ukraine is the latest example of it.)
And it's all on the governmental level. American major corporations would move in after that to "sell." The smaller fish ( smaller companies) were trying to move in "to sell" in Russia even earlier of course, to get their market share as soon as possible.



Quote:
Putin does a lot of grandstanding and promoting of the Cold War image of the US as the enemy, but behind the scenes, he actually favors the US as a business partner. He just doesn't tell the public that.
I am not sure that he REALLY favors US vs Germany.
But he definitely keeps the US in mind as the place "to keep money, getting nice returns on investments,)" ( although this is less and less a case, after all the political spats.)

And big part of Russians are well-aware where "Russian elite" keeps its money and send their children to.

It angers part of them, and part of them believe that it's all "part of a Putin's "smart plan."

Last edited by erasure; Yesterday at 05:59 PM..
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Old Yesterday, 05:57 PM
 
15,597 posts, read 14,106,208 times
Reputation: 7083
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
The key to the end of sanctions is in Russia's pocket. All that they need to do is stop stirring the pot both in the near-abroad and throughout the world. They do not need to be a great power.

They don't.
( At least in a sense of striving for the world domination, as the US do.)
However, if in order to feel geopolitically secure they need to get involved in near-abroad affairs, or few certain strategic ( for them) points throughout the world - they definitely have to proceed with it.
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Old Yesterday, 05:58 PM
 
Location: Seattle WA, USA
4,232 posts, read 2,429,429 times
Reputation: 2902
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
The key to the end of sanctions is in Russia's pocket. All that they need to do is stop stirring the pot both in the near-abroad and throughout the world. They do not need to be a great power.
But the thing is, Russia wants to be a great power, as that is the only thing that will insure their sovereignty, and it’s a price most Russians seem willing to pay, at least for now anyway. On top of that these sanctions were a rude but much needed wake up call for the elite on how vulnerable their economy is, and has forced them to diversify by way of import substitution. Besides Russia has been shut out for most of the 20th century, and that is when their economy was at its strongest point, so in the end it’s not something Russia is too worried about. Russians much rather live in their current state then return to the 90s when they were following the advise of American advisors.
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Old Yesterday, 06:11 PM
Status: "Trump Resistance - The (establishment) Empire Strikes Back" (set 24 days ago)
 
Location: New York Area
17,525 posts, read 6,848,578 times
Reputation: 13492
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
The US predatory practice was/is all about pulling the banking/money strings via IMF and redesigning Russian economy to fit American financial/geopolitical interests. (Ukraine is the latest example of it.)
Yeltsin needed IMF and World Bank aid. Don't the donors have something to say about how the money is spent?
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Old Yesterday, 06:31 PM
 
15,597 posts, read 14,106,208 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Yeltsin needed IMF and World Bank aid. Don't the donors have something to say about how the money is spent?

Yes they certainly do.

And what they said (THEIR choice) led not to PROJECTED ( by them) results, but to rise of someone like Putin instead.

Had they make a DIFFERENT choice, the results could have been drastically different as well.
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Old Yesterday, 06:35 PM
 
8,428 posts, read 7,606,489 times
Reputation: 6887
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
The key to the end of sanctions is in Russia's pocket. All that they need to do is stop stirring the pot both in the near-abroad and throughout the world. They do not need to be a great power.
You're getting the Soviet Union and Russia mixed up. The Cold War never ended and the US continued to pursue its end even as the Soviet Union's influence in the 3rd world continued to diminish. The perception that Russia is stirring the pot is an intentional distraction from the adventurism by US, NATO, and the allied Gulf states, especially those in Syria and Libya where they've created opportunities for Russia to defend its interests and expand its influence. The US should've been more conservative about how to prosecute wars in Iraq, Syria, and Libya as well as other countries in the MENA since they provide openings for another power to come in where the US has failed to fight terrorist groups. Using terrorist groups or insurgencies to blackmail governments will only work so long as there's only one major power. A resurgence in Russia or an awakening of China to protect its economic interests will upend those types of strategies.

Last edited by lchoro; Yesterday at 06:57 PM..
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Old Yesterday, 08:57 PM
 
Location: Preussen
415 posts, read 115,208 times
Reputation: 307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
The bolded isn't an equal comparison. East Germany's more remote towns are still close to big cities, compared to Siberia. Distances in East Germany are smaller, and therefore isolation is easier to overcome; it's easier to bring development to areas in need of it. It's far easier simply to get around, to travel between villages and towns.

The climate between the bolded regions also isn't comparable. East Germany doesn't have permafrost.It's much more expensive to build anything over permafrost. Compare the scale of the two regions in terms of square miles or kilometers involved, and the climate zones involved. You'll see, that the comparison becomes almost meaningless.
. Where do you live, Zim? What part of Siberia, if you don't want to mention the city?
Nothing in this world is equal. Russians on average are poorer to germans regardless of their geographical location, whether in Siberia or european Russia and seeking excuses instead of taking an action in improving their life will not help them in any way. United States are also big country and yet people can live there good regardless whether they live on densely populated east coast or in sparely populated Nevada or Montana.

Last edited by WestPreussen; Yesterday at 09:32 PM..
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Old Yesterday, 09:06 PM
 
Location: Preussen
415 posts, read 115,208 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grega94 View Post
What and you don't think Russia wasn't communist? The reason I bring up East Germany is because with West Germany, they had the capital and investments in theory to fully absorb the east to western standards, but that didn't happen, so how do you expect Russia that doesn't have that capital to turn Russia around and develop it over night? Unless you want Russia's leaders to pull the citizens kicking and screaming similar to what Peter I and Stalin had to do, and in some ways Putin has done the same, such as the pension reform, which is extremely unpopular but ultimately necessary. For now that capital is being spent on developing the major city centers such as Moscow and St. Petersburg, but over time that development will radiate outwards.

And speaking of Siberia, it's not some sh*thole that only beggars live in, it has some of the highest living standards out side of Moscow and St. Petersburg and some of the fastest growing cities in all of Russia. And if you look around Siberia is developing, it just takes time.

Novosibirsk
https://www.google.com/maps/@54.9914...7i13312!8i6656

Krasnoyarsk
https://www.google.com/maps/@55.9985...7i13312!8i6656

Omsk
https://www.google.com/maps/@55.0031...7i13312!8i6656

And even then the village life is slowly improving too.
https://www.google.com/maps/@55.7148...7i13312!8i6656

That is of course not to say that extreme poverty doesn't exist, nor that there could be massive improvements made on the current rate of development, but to act like it's a huge dumpster can that is not improving, and that only Moscow sees improvements is disingenuous.

I do remember reading a recent article where they stipulate that Russia is having a hard time spending their money that is budgeted out for development due to the fear that they will get snared up in corruption scandals since the Russian government has started paying closer attention to how their money is being spent. So I will definitely concede to the fact that Russia right now doesn't have a capital issue, but rather one of corruption.

And going back to the Russian Germans, if there was no "nostalgia" why did they pick Germany over say the US, UK, France etc. These Russians moved to Germany for similar reasons why Russian Jews moved to Israel.
No, it is not. You cannot equal 50 years of absolute waste to super development in any fast period. During cold war one western german land of Hessen had bigger gdp than whole east germany. Communism is the most disastrous economical system in the history. To think that you can even the damage in any fast way is naive. The truth is Germany is rich and Russia is poor and Germany poorest regions are still much better off than russian poorest regions. If you do not believe me, then travel to east germany and than to siberia and see the difference for yourself and see how life is there. Russians themselves chose the communist system ( by letting bolsheviks take the power and doing nothing about that) contrary to the rest of the europe, which was forced under this system after world war 2, so they can only blame themselves for that.

And going back to so called "german russians". They picked Germany simply because their partial ancestry made it easier for them to immigrate there than let's say to France or Netherlands. Thats it. If you do not believe me, then travel to Siberia, where those people were moved from volga area and try to speak with them in german and see how much they will understand. Their link to Germany is non existent except that some of them can have german surnames. They are culturally russians and only russians

And what those nice pictures from Siberia prove? Seriously you can find nice pictures from Nigeria, Romania, Cuba, basically from every underdeveloped nation. It does not prove anything.

Last edited by WestPreussen; Yesterday at 10:11 PM..
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