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Old 10-10-2020, 03:17 PM
 
11,610 posts, read 10,420,786 times
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Choose to read this article now, or after reading this post, or not at all. It offers an in-depth discussion of "presentism." A free registration is required.

https://www.chronicle.com/article/be...eg_wall_signup

The following interview of biographer A. Scott Berg offers an interesting perspective on "presentism," or how to view and honor historic individuals through a modern lens. Berg is both a Woodrow Wilson biographer and a Princeton University trustee. He had a ringside seat this summer when the Princeton Board of Trustees decided to remove Wilson's name from two important university institutions. This was not an easy decision for the Princeton board, because as President of Princeton University, Wilson had arguably launched Princeton onto a path towards greatness. He along with James Madison are the only two Princeton alumni who became President, and he is the only Princetonian to win a Nobel Peace Prize.

Woodrow Wilson as President of Princeton University was instrumental to elevating the university to the ranks of great global universities. He repurposed the university into "the nation's service," and hired the first faculty members who were Jewish and Catholic. Wilson toughened academic standards, emphasized research, instituted academic departments and initiated Princeton's famed precept system. Wilson failed in efforts to diminish the social influence of the university's exclusive "eating clubs" (fraternities with a difference), but his goal has been increasingly realized many decades later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodro...ton_University

Woodrow Wilson subsequently became President and won a Nobel Peace Prize. As President, Wilson oversaw the creation of much of the modern U.S. economic system (including the federal income tax and the Federal Reserve System), led the nation through World War I, and was the intellectual father of both the League of Nations and therefore the United Nations.

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/about-w...on%20in%201902.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodro...3%E2%88%921921)

Prior to this year, one of the nation's leading schools of public and international affairs at Princeton was named after Wilson, as was a residential college. This summer, after years of consideration, Princeton's Board of Trustees decided to remove Wilson's name from these institutions, greatly because of Wilson's effective resegregation of the federal government and his inherent racism.

https://paw.princeton.edu/article/pr...sidents-racism

With this context, this interview of biographer A. Scott Berg, both a Princeton trustee and a leading biographer of Wilson, discusses the renaming decision of the Princeton Board of Trustees from an historian's perspective. In Berg's case, his perspective is enhanced by ongoing work on a biographer of legendary Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall, who earlier in his career as founder and executive director of the NAACP Legal Defense and Education Fund argued several of the most imporant Civil Rights cases before the Supreme Court.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._Scott_Berg


Berg's discussion of "presentism" in the following interview has great relevance to modern American debates over other historical legacies, from that of Christopher Columbus to statues of Confederate leaders.

<<Did you agree with the decision to remove Wilson’s name?

Yes. For me, the decision was complicated and correct. History keeps evolving, and so must institutions if they wish to remain vibrant and relevant. Nobody understood that better than Wilson himself, who jolted Princeton when he hired its first Jewish and Catholic faculty members and fought to rid the campus of its exclusivity by challenging the club system. It was that very crusade to diversify and democratize Princeton that captured national attention and catapulted him from academia to the White House in just two years.

Are you concerned that the focus on Wilson’s racism will erase recognition of his positive achievements?

I’m concerned that it might — because time tends to shrink significant events and people to bullet points and thumbnails; and I would hate to see one of the most idealistic figures in history — and Princeton’s only Nobel Peace Prize winner — reduced to a one-word epithet.

Biographers also confront “presentism” — the tendency to apply contemporary values while interpreting the past. In the case of Wilson, long ranked among our greatest presidents, increased focus on racism has demoted him in the last few decades. That particular reassessment is long overdue, though it should be examined with a wide lens. When Wilson ran for president in 1912, avowed members of the Ku Klux Klan proudly served in the Senate and “separate but equal” was the law of the land. After 13 years of research, I found Wilson to be a centrist on race matters. But today, his allowing Jim Crow back into the federal offices — which quickly permeated most of American society and remained for half a century — has become a hallmark of his administration and rendered him an extremist. Wilson’s got to own that resegregation, and people of every successive era must reckon the extent to which that should define the rest of his predominantly progressive career.>>

https://paw.princeton.edu/article/ho...ographers-view

A famous biography of Lyndon Johnson is Eric Goldman's, "The Tragedy of Lyndon Johnson." Such a titled book clearly could be written about Wilson for those who respect his accomplishments as President.

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/about-w...on%20in%201902.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodro...3%E2%88%921921)

Berg in an earlier interview after the publication of his Wilson biography in 2013 explains how Wilson ironically is vilified by many right wing opponents of "big government." Yet it's possible to see how Wilson would appeal to today's progressives, apart from his racist views and resistance to women's suffrage.

<<Many right-wing critics further object to his imposing the federal government into our lives. Wilson thought there were basic inequities in this country, primarily economic, that needed to be addressed. During his first few years in office, he muscled everything from the Federal Reserve Act to the Clayton Antitrust Act and the Adamson Act with its eight-hour workday through the Congress. The federal government expanded into areas of the economy in which it had not intruded before, a presence Wilson thought the country needed in order to prosper. With so much wealth in the hands of so few that the average American did not have a fair chance to compete, he wanted to level the playing field.

That theme of wanting to equalize opportunities recurs in Wilson’s life — whether it protected the student who wasn’t accepted into Princeton’s most exclusive eating clubs or the Western farmer trying to function in a nation controlled by Eastern industrialists or small nations trying to survive in an emerging world economy. Sadly, his thinking seldom included African-Americans.>>

https://paw.princeton.edu/article/qa...ow-wilson-1879

Last edited by WRnative; 10-10-2020 at 04:14 PM..
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Old 10-11-2020, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Balanced views on past figures with any sort of racism to their lives, are not in vogue at the moment.
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Old 10-11-2020, 03:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Balanced views on past figures with any sort of racism to their lives, are not in vogue at the moment.
Well, Hitler was kind to dogs and all that. Wilson may have been progressive on some fronts, but his record with Blacks is pretty uniformly appalling.

That said, I don't think that one facet defines the man. But I'm sure Princeton's students of color feel a little less oppressed by the name change, and that's not a small thing.
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Old 10-16-2020, 02:11 PM
 
Location: West Des Moines
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRnative View Post
<<Many right-wing critics further object to his imposing the federal government into our lives.
Count me as one of those critics. Fortunately many of his most egregious actions either ended with the Armistice or were reversed by Presidents Harding and Coolidge.

I guess that I wish Woodrow Wilson was being widely vilified for his progressive/socialist/big-government policies in addition to his racist and pro-Klan views.
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Old 10-16-2020, 02:32 PM
 
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My beef with both historical figures is this:

Woodrow Wilson waited too long to get the US involved in WW1. His beliefs were that the Great War had nothing to do with us, and he manifested this through hyper-isolationism of this country. Only after the sinking of merchant vessels (Lusitania) and threats from South of the Border (the Zimmerman Note) did he decide to jump in. Far too late IMHO!

Thurgood Marshall had a judicial philosophy that I don't agree with. While I have nothing but respect for him as the very first African-American on the Supreme Court, his belief that you could "Do what's right, and let the law catch up" is wrong! You MUST either follow the TEXT of the Constitution or believe that you can simply make up anything that you want.

And yes I know I'm Monday Morning Quarterbacking, but what is history for if not too learn from past mistakes?
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Old 10-16-2020, 02:58 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 80sHorrorJunkie View Post

Thurgood Marshall had a judicial philosophy that I don't agree with. While I have nothing but respect for him as the very first African-American on the Supreme Court, his belief that you could "Do what's right, and let the law catch up" is wrong! You MUST either follow the TEXT of the Constitution or believe that you can simply make up anything that you want.
The above places a higher value on the tool than on what we hope to achieve using that tool.

It is our justice system, and anytime it fails to bring about justice, even if the letter of the law has been upheld, then it has failed us all. Demanding that a judge stick to the absolute law even when it is apparent to all that such a course will bring about an unjust result, is reducing us to slaves to the tool we employ, the law, to produce justice.

What you are arguing strikes me as akin to arguing that someone who has been given a shovel to dig a hole, and discovers that what is really needed is a pick, must use the shovel anyway because that is the official hole digging tool.

That we make the laws does not mean that we then must become mindless slaves to the law. I am very much in favor of our letting judges and justices, interpret the law so as to bring about what we want, which is justice. We make laws in the hope that it will cover any situation which may arise. If we discover a situation where that law has an inappropriate application, must we act helpless?
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Old 10-16-2020, 03:39 PM
 
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The problem with following the text of the Constitution is that even those who were at the Convention, Washington, Hamilton and Madison couldn't agree on its meaning. Its one reason why political parties developed during Washington's Administration. They didn't just develop, it became bitter and personal. It even got worse during the Adam's Administration.

Regarding the quote, if someone could provide the actual original source it would be helpful. I have found it attributed to Thurgood Marshall, but not the source.
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Old 10-16-2020, 04:29 PM
 
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Ideas like "originalism" and "textualism" don't work with a 230 year old document.

I believe the Founding Fathers intended for the document they wrote to be interpreted and it has much to do with the broad language used in any constitutional provisions. Let me give a couple of examples: The fifth amendment states "no person can be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law". Being deprived of liberty may not mean the same things to some people. To some it may mean being sent to jail. To others it may mean the government is keeping them from operating a business because of corona virus. To others it may mean being unable to make a reproductive choice. "Due process of law" needs to be interpreted too. Does it mean you get a trial? Does it mean during that trial the state has to provide you with the right to cross examine witnesses, present your own witnesses, and be judged by a neutral and impartial person? There are many questions left open by the language the framers used just in this one part of the Constitution.

I could go on and on with other constitutional provisions.

The point is that the document has to be interpreted and you can't just say "go with the plain meaning" or the "original meaning" because that may be unclear as well.

The document survives and remains a vital force in this nation precisely because it has broad language and the courts have been willing to interpret it to meet the needs of a modern nation.
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Old 10-16-2020, 04:45 PM
 
Location: North America
4,430 posts, read 2,703,329 times
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Originally Posted by webster View Post
The problem with following the text of the Constitution is that even those who were at the Convention, Washington, Hamilton and Madison couldn't agree on its meaning. Its one reason why political parties developed during Washington's Administration. They didn't just develop, it became bitter and personal. It even got worse during the Adam's Administration.

Regarding the quote, if someone could provide the actual original source it would be helpful. I have found it attributed to Thurgood Marshall, but not the source.
Then there's the folly of attributing any specific meaning to such pivotal words in the Bill of Rights as unusual, reasonable, excessive?

What cause is probable?
Where's the line between peaceably and other than peaceably?
What constitutes a right being infringed?
Need I say more than general welfare?

And that's only a very limited sampling.

These are not trivial questions. Indeed, even a cursory understanding of language reveals that there is wide latitude for interpretation at best. Some words and phrases were deliberately chosen for their subjectivity, in order to garner passage by a convention and state bodies that were expected to read what they desired into said words. Some words and terms are little more than blank slates.
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Old 10-16-2020, 04:51 PM
 
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For those interested, there is only one source of what happened at the Constitutional Convention. James Madison's Notes of Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787. Sworn to secrecy, this is the only record we have; Madison instructed that his Notes were to be published only after the last person who attended died. As it turned out, he was that last person. That they managed to reach agreement on anything is amazing after one reads the Notes. It is available in book form or online at:

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/debcont.asp
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