Today's United States vs Ancient Rome (tanks, German, military, years)

[ovcatto]

Originally Posted by cpg35223

From the scientific method to medicine to technology to government to finance to government, in big ways and small, the Western ways have prevailed.

The "western" way? God only knows that their weren't any middle eastern or eastern contribution to the scientific method or medicine! How foolish of me not to realize that Algebra was Greek!

[Leovigildo]

Originally Posted by Trudy Rose

This is not the first time you mentioned this. Is it perhaps because Spain was, for the most part, invaded and ruled by the Arabs for so long?

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Spain was invaded later, 711. I'm referring to the entire southern Mediterranean Rim, from Egipt to Marroco, by then romanized and Christian regions. Also lost Syria, Holy Land, and helenized territories belonging to the Eastern Roman Emire, and the invasion of Sicily and parts of Italy.

The whole Mediterranean southern rim was lost. The richest and most cultured part of the Empire, whose commercial and cultural routes remained intact until Islam invasion of the VII, VIIth Century, was lost. The trade with the Eastern Roman Empire.

[6 FOOT 3]

Leo ... i'm glad you cleared up the confusion about Islam and the Eastern Empire as you stated earlier that it was Islam that brought havoc to the mediterranean Western Empire as it was gone before Islam arose and so i was a tad bit confused .

Also where was the Moors capital in Spain? Was it Toledo i'm thinking ?

[Leovigildo]

6 FOOT

During the 7th Century, all Mediterranean area remained practically intact. In fact, commerce didn't suffer a lot during Germanic invasions.

The capital of the Caliphate was Cordoba, or Cordova in English (with a very large University, the most important one in Europe), very soon the Caliphate territory became divided in "Taifas", with frequent internal fights between factions. That's how Christians up north started pushing south since the VIIIth Century.

In Spain, the Arab and North African presence was minimal, and the two groups were always fighting each other with the help of Christian mercenaries from Northen Spain or Northen Europe (Arabs called them Franks and Slavs).

They were always looking for mercenaries for their internal strifes, for example, the Vikings made a large landing near Seville, and after burning a few towns, they were "hired" as mercenaries for large sums. They ditch their ships and are still living there.

Arabs at that time were just like the Spanish, very individualistic, with a strong tendency toward "caudillismo" and as quarrelsome as the Visigoths. Today, it remains a mistery if most of the Emirs of the Caliphate were Arabs or converted Goths. It seems that there was a mass conversion. For goths, that were Arrians (many of them) it seems it was easier. For Christians, Islam at that time was extremely civilized, tolerant and cultured. They allowed a large mass of Christians in their territory.

Toledo or Toletum in Latin was the ancient capital of Visigothic Hispania, that disappeared in 711.

[jtur88]

Originally Posted by cpg35223

From the scientific method to medicine to technology to government to finance to government, in big ways and small, the Western ways have prevailed.

But this linearity to the present might not be caused by any characteristic or quality of Romanism that made it more enduring.

The Roman Empire was the one that fell within the rise and spread of Christianity, which was the only major religion of the time whose adherents believed they were commanded to conquer the world and either convert everyone to their way of thinking or kill them, which they did with vigor. So it was the Christian empire, and not the Roman Empire, which followed the straight line to the present global power structure. It is merely coincidental that the Christians solidified their march with a Roman congruency, and it is Christian ways, fitted onto a Roman chassis, that have prevailed.

[6 FOOT 3]

Originally Posted by Leovigildo

6 FOOT

During the 7th Century, all Mediterranean area remained practically intact. In fact, commerce didn't suffer a lot during Germanic invasions.

The capital of the Caliphate was Cordoba, or Cordova in English (with a very large University, the most important one in Europe), very soon the Caliphate territory became divided in "Taifas", with frequent internal fights between factions. That's how Christians up north started pushing south since the VIIIth Century.

In Spain, the Arab and North African presence was minimal, and the two groups were always fighting each other with the help of Christian mercenaries from Northen Spain or Northen Europe (Arabs called them Franks and Slavs).

They were always looking for mercenaries for their internal strifes, for example, the Vikings made a large landing near Seville, and after burning a few towns, they were "hired" as mercenaries for large sums. They ditch their ships and are still living there.

Arabs at that time were just like the Spanish, very individualistic, with a strong tendency toward "caudillismo" and as quarrelsome as the Visigoths. Today, it remains a mistery if most of the Emirs of the Caliphate were Arabs or converted Goths. It seems that there was a mass conversion. For goths, that were Arrians (many of them) it seems it was easier. For Christians, Islam at that time was extremely civilized, tolerant and cultured. They allowed a large mass of Christians in their territory.

Toledo or Toletum in Latin was the ancient capital of Visigothic Hispania, that disappeared in 711.

O.k. it was Cordoba thanks !!

Yeap i know about Toledo being the Visigoths capital city and i always use to wonder why i couldn't find any of their Germanic culture in Spain until it dawned on me that since they were highly ''Romanced'' by the Romans that possibly we are seeing them when we look at Spain today ??

I know some of them fled into the Frankish Kingdom when the Moors invaded never to be heard from again but i believe they mostly intermingled with the Moors within the Iberian Peninsula. Leo, since you live in Spain is this a possibility about the Visigoths and todays Spaniards??

[ArizonaBear]

Originally Posted by jtur88

The crucial philosophical point here is that the US would never have gone to war against the Romans. If an enemy is at all formidable, all we do is scream insults and make faces at them from the safety of our side of the ocean. We don't send in troops unless we have at least a ten-to-one superiority in every aspect of war, enough to guarantee a quick and decisive victory, and we still often come out with a bare stalemate,, if we don't turn tail and run the minute we take a few casualties.

If the Romans has invaded us, it would be a different matter. I have no doubt that the Amerians would successfully defend our own shores against just about any earthly invader. But the Romans, if nothing else, were very circumspect about the practical limitations of expanding their empire, which may be much of the reason it lasted as long as it did.

Remember something about US culture: it takes a lot to anger us; once enraged, we will finish the job.

Something that Tojo among many others learned to their sorrow.

Hitler did not know when to back down hence he and the Nazis having their butts handed to them on a silver platter.

[Leovigildo]

6 FOOT

Visigoths in Spain were few. Maybe 300.000 to 400.000 in a population of more than 6.000.000 Hispano-Romans.

Spanish visigoths were highly romanized "civilized" in comparison with the rest of Germanic invaders such as the Ostrogoths, Franks, Suevians and Vandals. They had their law, Germanic Law, a language, that disappeared in no time leaving about 10 words in current day Spanish.

There were also the Suevians, that stablished a kingdom in Northwest of Spain, later destroyed by the Goths.

During the Islamic invasion, many made truces with the invaders and became Emirs, other fled north to initiate the Reconquest and most stayed where they where. No, they didn't flee to the Frankish kingdom, what happened was that Charlemagne invaded part of Spain (Barcelona) and adopted the Goth counts as Franks, but left them without assistance.

There are many places called "godos", "villagodos", but I guess that Goths, and the rest of Germanic invaders and settlers (Suevians, Vikings, Normans, Bavarians, etc) are now part of the Spanish identity.

I don't think that it's possible to set apart their descendants because Spain has received germanic invasions (and some not Germanic as the Alans) way before Roman presence (that was the reason why Romans came to Spain, the invasion of Cymbrians).

Parts of Spain were settled with Southern German Catholics (by then starving) during the XVIII Century (1760), but they have lost any memory of their German origin. They only thing they do different from neighbouring towns are Easter Eggs.

[Leovigildo]

[quote=Leovigildo;9611441]6 FOOT

Visigoths in Spain were few. Maybe 300.000 to 400.000 in a population of more than 6.000.000 Hispano-Romans.

Spanish visigoths were highly romanized "civilized" in comparison with the rest of Germanic invaders such as the Ostrogoths, Franks, Suevians and Vandals. They had their law, Germanic Law, a language, that disappeared in no time leaving about 10 words in current day Spanish.

There were also the Suevians, that stablished a kingdom in Northwest of Spain, later destroyed by the Goths.

During the Islamic invasion, many made truces with the invaders and became Emirs, other fled north to initiate the Reconquest and most stayed where they where. No, they didn't flee to the Frankish kingdom, what happened was that Charlemagne invaded part of Spain (Barcelona) and adopted the Goth counts as Franks, but left them without assistance.

There are many places called "godos", "villagodos", but I guess that Goths, and the rest of Germanic invaders and settlers (Suevians, Vikings, Normans, Bavarians, etc) are now part of the Spanish identity.

I don't think that it's possible to set apart their descendants because Spain has received germanic invasions (and some not Germanic as the Alans) way before Roman presence (that was the reason why Romans came to Spain, the invasion of Cymbrians).

Parts of Spain were settled with Southern German Catholics (by then starving) during the XVIII Century (1760), but they have lost any memory of their German origin. They only thing they do different from neighbouring towns are Easter Eggs.

As to finding Germanic culture in Spain, Germanic culture is part of Spanish culture.

The idea of Spanish state with a central capital and a single religion is entirely Germanic. Catalonia, Aragon, Castille were founded on solid Gothic and Frankish principles, and above all, the War of Reconquest, that took 800 years, was based on the ideal of recovering the "Spain of the Goths".

The Spain lost by Don Rodrigo (Roderick).

[6 FOOT 3]

Leo, i know the Vandals were residing in southern Spain in the Roman province of Baetica but that province today is subdivided into many Spanish provinces and so do they know exactly where they were at when Roman General Boniface invited them to cross over into Mauretania Tingitana to help him to attack Roman General Aetius in the Roman Civil War of 429 a.d..