U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-18-2008, 12:27 PM
 
Location: St. Augustine
9,258 posts, read 11,743,274 times
Reputation: 7422

Advertisements

A carryover thread from the Japan thread.

I think the Soviets and Brits would've beaten Germany even without American involvement. It would've taken longer of course but I see nothing to indicate that German victory was inevitable as some assume.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-18-2008, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Somewhere East of Laramie
29,486 posts, read 18,619,823 times
Reputation: 12509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
A carryover thread from the Japan thread.

I think the Soviets and Brits would've beaten Germany even without American involvement. It would've taken longer of course but I see nothing to indicate that German victory was inevitable as some assume.


German victory may not have been inevitable but had their rocket technology and Me-262 production capacity continued to evolve, inevitable without the intensive American bombing campaign along with the greater possibility of their nuclear research bearing fruit, German victory was certainly possible.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2008, 12:47 PM
 
30,550 posts, read 18,858,750 times
Reputation: 14937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
A carryover thread from the Japan thread.

I think the Soviets and Brits would've beaten Germany even without American involvement. It would've taken longer of course but I see nothing to indicate that German victory was inevitable as some assume.
The US sent convoy after convoy to the soviets in particular. In excess of 100,000 trucks alone plus food, blankets, guns, planes, tanks in enormous quantities. This kept the Soviets in the fight (at enormous personal cost, something they don't always get the proper respect for IMHO)

Not even getting into the British situation but the Soviets would not have been able to hold out although open to hearing your views in more detail. Check out all the stuff the US sent them in the crucial early years first though...it's staggering.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2008, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Maine
8,437 posts, read 11,072,099 times
Reputation: 7296
History is full of lots of ifs and maybes. Hitler might have won WWII if he'd left Russia alone. Who knows?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2008, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Orlando
7,948 posts, read 7,039,892 times
Reputation: 3721
Had America never entered the war a second front would not have been opened up and Hitler could have fought the Rusians with more. The advancements in rocketry would have continued to pulverize the Brits and I think they would have ultimately been over run. Our vast amount of supplies pretty well overpowered the Germans. The other possibility is that the Germans would have gotten the bomb as they too were working on it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2008, 02:46 PM
 
7,671 posts, read 10,911,560 times
Reputation: 2949
Quote:
Originally Posted by AONE View Post
Had America never entered the war a second front would not have been opened up and Hitler could have fought the Rusians with more. The advancements in rocketry would have continued to pulverize the Brits and I think they would have ultimately been over run. Our vast amount of supplies pretty well overpowered the Germans. The other possibility is that the Germans would have gotten the bomb as they too were working on it.
Pretty much true. The Brits probably could have held out against the Germans but an incredible cost and with little or no hope of any offensive capability, save for the impressive Royal Navy. But one must remember that Hitler was not that interested in subjugating and occupying the UK. He really wanted them to simply step aside and stay out of the way.

With America in the war, you are talking about an almost infinite supply of manpower as well as enormous industrial capacity, most of it out of the range of bombers. Putting British pride aside enables one to see that fighting the war without the Yanks was a pretty grim prospect.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2008, 03:25 PM
 
25,156 posts, read 27,058,349 times
Reputation: 34336
I'm not sure about your premise, even though it is an intriguing one.

By "without American involvement," do you mean Lend Lease, too? Do you mean no American destroyers escorting British convoys to the Mid-Ocean Meeting Point? If so, I'm really skeptical that the British could have held out without being starved. The situation was beyond grim in 1941, and it was only through the massive shipments of American foodstuff--protected in convoy halfway across the Atlantic, that kept the island from experiencing famine.

At the very least, I'm certain the British would have been much more hard pressed to hold onto the Middle East and India, particularly if the Japanese did not have to worry about the Americans. In fact, given the Japanese precedent of overrunning French Indochina, no American involvement in the war would have probably meant that the Japanese would have a much freer hand to overrun Indonesia, and hang a right into the Indian ocean. After all, even with the American fleet beginning to contest the Japanese in the Pacific, they still managed to bomb the snot out of the British at Tricomalee and even threatened the Vichy French colony at Madagascar. So it is not out of the realm of possibililty that the Japanese could have threatened the British ability to resupply their armies in the critical area of the Middle East, the Suez, and India. Australia and New Zealand would probably had been forced to withdraw their divisions from Africa to defend their home countries, and the considerable Indian forces would have been of dubious quality as well.

Now, the Russians did have a huge army, and would have been problematic for the Germans no matter what. But again, America supplied so much of the transport, the aircraft, and the foodstuffs that kept the Russians fighting along the Eastern front. There's little question that they could have held out against the Germans. However, it is a much harder question that they could have prevailed.

And, if the Germans and Japanese did manage to force a British surrender, then the full capability of the Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, and Kriegsmarine would have been turned to bear on the Russians. As it was, the Russians were nearly cut off from their vital oil fields and the food shipments through Persia. What would have happen if the Germans and Italians--with a boost from the Japanese--had managed to overrun British territories in the Middle East? I really shudder to consider what might have happened.

And, finally, what would have happened if the war had lasted to the point of stalemate another three to five years? Would a German a-bomb have become possible? I certainly think so, and the Germans probably were much better positioned than the British and Russians to produce one. If that had happened, Germany almost certainly would have prevailed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2008, 04:24 PM
 
Location: St. Augustine
9,258 posts, read 11,743,274 times
Reputation: 7422
Where are all the Germans going to come from to continue battling Britian and more importantly the Soviet Union? People ask where would the Russians get this and where would the Brits get that but given the nature of the war in Russia where were the Germans themselves gonna come from?

Britian was more likely to produce the atomic bomb than Germany was, as it was the Germans were heading towards a dead end with their notions on it. And without an atomic bomb to put on the end of it a V2 rocket is about the most complicated and expensive way imaginable to send a ton of TNT to a target.

I think the British would've gotten a handle on the U-boat war; they had a huge fleet, very capable technical people and Ultra. Then they could have gone back to the proper British strategy of blockade and sea control whild allied to a strong land power; a strategy that worked well for them in the 18th and 19th Centuries.

German policies in Russia guaranteed that the Russians were gonna fight to the bitter end---the extinction of fascist Germany, to the Russians it was win or die. Every mile deeper in Russia cost the Germans dead and made their logistics harder. The Russians would have eventually started to grow stronger and more consolidated as the Germans grew weaker and more spread out. Without American transport the Russian task would've been more difficult, no doubt. But not impossible. Faced with win or die the Russians would choose to win.

In 1810 Napolean sat astride the World, in 1814 he sat in Elba.

As for the Japanese, well they couldn't do what they wanted to do without fighting The United States, the Germans could have. Once Japan goes after Indonesia and Malaya they have to fight The United States or tolerate the American held Phillipines as a threat on their communications. Which they wouldn't do, obviously.

Last edited by Irishtom29; 06-18-2008 at 05:03 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2008, 04:32 PM
 
13,016 posts, read 24,271,459 times
Reputation: 11327
Too many ''what ifs'' and recognizing that the Germans were close on Atomic knowledge and full scale jet technology but after the distasterous Barbarossa Campaign the German High Command knew it was over by Dec/Jan 1941/42 is my thought on it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-19-2008, 04:47 AM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,237 posts, read 26,936,731 times
Reputation: 10597
I don't know that Germany would have been able to take Britain...but it certainly did not help their cause when American troops were arrayed against them as well. Without THAT factor, Germany would probably have had a good hold on Northern Africa and Europe...less the U.K.

As a matter of fact, the U.K. had its own problems with Ireland at the time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top