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In regards to the Holocaust, no clear evidence states Hitler ordered it but alot casts the actual blame on Himmler and Heydrich, whose Wannasee protocols were enacted after the west stopped accepting deported jews from Germany, and in many cases these countries were given hard currency by Germany to accept them
The absence of a document signed by Adolf Hitler that explicitly orders the extermination of Europe's Jews doesn't prove anything. The structure of the Nazi government was such that an undertaking of that magnitude could simply not have happened without Hitler's direct order or approval. While it is true that Himmler, Heydrich, and Eichmann were the main conductors of the Final Solution, they certainly didn't or wouldn't do it on their own initiative.
The Wannsee Conference (Protocol) of January 20, 1942 was for all intents and purposes a logistical meeting. The appropriate parties were brought together to discuss how the implementation of the extermination of the Jews on a mass scale could be done most efficiently, not to decide if it should or shouldn't be done at all. As it was, the Einsatzgruppen were already in the process of liquidating the Jews in the conquered lands of the Soviet Union, so it isn't as if this wasn't already established Third Reich policy.
If one doubts that Hitler had a hand in it, simply look at the minutes of the Wannsee meeting. It is clearly stated that "Another possible solution of the problem has now taken the place of emigration, i.e. the evacuation of the Jews to the East, provided that the Fuhrer gives the appropriate approval in advance". And what was in the East? The already established concentration camps like Auschwitz and Chelmno that were in the process of being converted into extermination centers. In addition, camps were under construction at Belzec, Treblinka, and Sobibor that were designed specifically for that purpose. Seeing as how the flow of Jews to the East and on to their deaths increased to record levels well into 1943, I believe that one could make the case that the Fuhrer had given his approval.
Should that be deemed insufficient evidence, then perhaps these additional quotes will satisfy:
From Joseph Goebbels diary, entry of December 12, 1941:
"With respect to the Jewish Question, the Fuhrer has decided to make a clean sweep. He prophesied to the Jews that if they again brought about a world war, they would live to see their annihilation in it. That wasn't just a catch-word. The world war is here, and the annihilation of the Jews must be the necessary consequence".
From a note handwritten by Heinrich Himmler after a meeting with Hitler on December 18, 1941:
"Jewish Question/to be exterminated like the partisans"
Absent the proverbial "smoking gun" I am sure that there will always be those that will not be convinced that Hitler directed his minions to rid the whole of Europe of it's Jews. But given Adolf Hitler's well known, rabid anti-Semitism and faced with the catalogue of horrible deeds performed in his name, I don't know how any reasonable or rational person can deny it.
Alot of good people also marched under the NSDAP flag. You seem to forget that in Germany in those days that political parties all had their stormtroopers or bullys--this included the greens, communists, etc. The only difference between these parties was that Hitler was able to get a majority vote in the Reichsstag that enabled him to consolidate the powers of Chancellor and President (after Hindenburgs death) and assume them that led to the enabling act and his de facto dictatorship. Hitler then ignored the Treaty of Versailles and began to rearm Germany, he also instituted a number of financial acts that brought Germany out of its depression and made it into a superpower for its time. Keep in mind that the western powers (ie France, Britian, etc) are almost as responsible for the coming German agression as Hitler was--after the re-occupation of the Rhineland, and the re-conquest of Sudetenland. Only after these successful military operations did the west become scared of his ambition, and reluctantly declared war after Germany invaded Poland.
In regards to the Holocaust, no clear evidence states Hitler ordered it but alot casts the actual blame on Himmler and Heydrich, whose Wannasee protocols were enacted after the west stopped accepting deported jews from Germany, and in many cases these countries were given hard currency by Germany to accept them
Sounds like you have read The rise and fall of the thid reich too.
Sounds like you have read The rise and fall of the thid reich too.
I have 2 bookshelves devoted to WWII in my office. The Rise and Fall was a good book much better than Speers book. If you are interested in the subject I would suggest "Order of the Deathshead" or "Himmler"
The absence of a document signed by Adolf Hitler that explicitly orders the extermination of Europe's Jews doesn't prove anything. The structure of the Nazi government was such that an undertaking of that magnitude could simply not have happened without Hitler's direct order or approval. While it is true that Himmler, Heydrich, and Eichmann were the main conductors of the Final Solution, they certainly didn't or wouldn't do it on their own initiative.
The Wannsee Conference (Protocol) of January 20, 1942 was for all intents and purposes a logistical meeting. The appropriate parties were brought together to discuss how the implementation of the extermination of the Jews on a mass scale could be done most efficiently, not to decide if it should or shouldn't be done at all. As it was, the Einsatzgruppen were already in the process of liquidating the Jews in the conquered lands of the Soviet Union, so it isn't as if this wasn't already established Third Reich policy.
If one doubts that Hitler had a hand in it, simply look at the minutes of the Wannsee meeting. It is clearly stated that "Another possible solution of the problem has now taken the place of emigration, i.e. the evacuation of the Jews to the East, provided that the Fuhrer gives the appropriate approval in advance". And what was in the East? The already established concentration camps like Auschwitz and Chelmno that were in the process of being converted into extermination centers. In addition, camps were under construction at Belzec, Treblinka, and Sobibor that were designed specifically for that purpose. Seeing as how the flow of Jews to the East and on to their deaths increased to record levels well into 1943, I believe that one could make the case that the Fuhrer had given his approval.
Should that be deemed insufficient evidence, then perhaps these additional quotes will satisfy:
From Joseph Goebbels diary, entry of December 12, 1941:
"With respect to the Jewish Question, the Fuhrer has decided to make a clean sweep. He prophesied to the Jews that if they again brought about a world war, they would live to see their annihilation in it. That wasn't just a catch-word. The world war is here, and the annihilation of the Jews must be the necessary consequence".
From a note handwritten by Heinrich Himmler after a meeting with Hitler on December 18, 1941:
"Jewish Question/to be exterminated like the partisans"
Absent the proverbial "smoking gun" I am sure that there will always be those that will not be convinced that Hitler directed his minions to rid the whole of Europe of it's Jews. But given Adolf Hitler's well known, rabid anti-Semitism and faced with the catalogue of horrible deeds performed in his name, I don't know how any reasonable or rational person can deny it.
Sure Hitler knew about it, but I am talking the architects of the final solution, the ones that actually put it into practice. Hitler by this point was too wrapped up in the war to concentrate on the jewish problem.
Most people act like antisemitism was confined to the borders of Germany at the time, and nothing could be farther from the truth--in fact it was rampant through out central/eastern europe as well as Russia. The only difference between Germany and the rest was that the Germans found a systematic way of killing the jews.
Now, do not take this as that I condone the acts of Germany, I do not I just have read alot on the subject
I have 2 bookshelves devoted to WWII in my office. The Rise and Fall was a good book much better than Speers book. If you are interested in the subject I would suggest "Order of the Deathshead" or "Himmler"
Totally off topic, but why do you have so much interest in this subject? Is it WWII in general or Nazi German that you have so many books on?
Totally off topic, but why do you have so much interest in this subject? Is it WWII in general or Nazi German that you have so many books on?
World War II in general but I find Germany interesting from that time period because of that 1 man could so completely fuse the concept of nationalism with his political agenda, and that so many people in his country started to view him almost as a deity. It also interests me that how all of these years later to many german people that they cannot feel a sense of national pride because once again the concept of nationalism has become so intertwined with what happened so many years ago.
Germany became a united nation only in 1871- but what the region was prior to this- many individual 'states' that where independent. These 'states' where considered highly cultured and civilized-hardly 'Third World'.
The Nazi's where a gutter political party that can be considered a modern 'Fascist State' espousing right wing views such a regime will. It was modern totalitarianism, with false racial views, controlled propagandized media, and a preemptive aggressive foreign policy which espoused extreme nationalism.
Last edited by skytrekker; 10-07-2008 at 04:37 PM..
I'm just saying how tragic that must have been for Germany to be a highly cultured and civilized country for brutal mass murdering of innocent folks to happen for nearly a decade without it being stopped, it progressively got worse; however, like the other poster said, Jews were as a whole disliked in central Europe at those times. I guess one can relate it to the discrimination and hatred African Americans went through in the USA?
I liked Albert Einstein's comments on Nazi Germany.....and he was banned from returning to those areas of europe from what I remember...pretty freaky.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skytrekker
Germany became a united nation only in 1871- but what the region was prior to this- many individual 'states' that where independent. These 'states' where considered highly cultured and civilized-hardly 'Third World'.
The Nazi's where a gutter political party that can be considered a modern 'Fascist State' espousing right wing views such a regime will. It was modern totalitarianism, with false racial views, controlled propagandized media, and a preemptive aggressive foreign policy which espoused extreme nationalism.
I'm just saying how tragic that must have been for Germany to be a highly cultured and civilized country for brutal mass murdering of innocent folks to happen for nearly a decade without it being stopped, it progressively got worse; however, like the other poster said, Jews were as a whole disliked in central Europe at those times. I guess one can relate it to the discrimination and hatred African Americans went through in the USA?
I liked Albert Einstein's comments on Nazi Germany.....and he was banned from returning to those areas of europe from what I remember...pretty freaky.
Ummm...while African-Americans were certainly subjected to centuries of injustice, they were never systematically slaughtered en masse as the Jews were.
AAs were brought over as slaves and have slowly progressed to the status quo since the end of the Civil War. German Jews, on the other hand, were actually well integrated and assimilated into society before Hitler came around (young Hitler himself had a family doctor who was Jewish).
So your comparison is inaccurate. But your overall question is a valid one. I suppose the simple answer is that Germans are human. As humans they are capable of nearly anything given certain circumstances.
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