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Old 11-03-2008, 06:21 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
10,447 posts, read 5,959,722 times
Reputation: 7583
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sman View Post
You are using semantics to justify the arguments of an illegal, immoral, and unjust invasion, and destruction, of the southern states by that brutal tyrant.

Two things come to mind:
"We hold these truths self-evident"

and

Sic Semper tyrannis !!!
Your little performance above does not merit any sort of thoughtful response. I am of course not using semantics and you couldn't even point out what you mean by that if challenged, you are just making some noise.

The invasion was perfectly legal under the Constitution which provides the President precisely such powers in cases of insurrection. There was an insurrection, Lincoln acted. And only someone tremendoulsy unschooled on the Lincoln administration would charge him with being a tyrant.

What I think is this. I think that you have learned only enough so that you have a few grenades to toss about in support of a pre existing mind set. It is not really possible to read any of the sophisticated and exhaustive biographies of Lincoln without concluding that this was a man of extarordinary skills, intelligence and character. Kindness, patience, and genuine humility informed his interactions with others, firmness, judgment, practicality and humanitarianism marked his political operations.

You have taken this great man and reducded him to a bumper sticker sized demon and are using him as a device to vent a series of overthrown romantic notions as to what the rebellion was about.

That's what I think.
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Old 11-03-2008, 06:46 PM
 
Location: Virginia
6,530 posts, read 8,672,474 times
Reputation: 3036
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Your little performance above does not merit any sort of thoughtful response. I am of course not using semantics and you couldn't even point out what you mean by that if challenged, you are just making some noise.

.
Semantics might not be the right word, but I'd challenge you to explain to everyone what difference it makes if each state "unilaterally" withdrew from the Union or they all did it in concert???

Doesn't make a difference. You're tossing the word "unilateral" about as though it has any bearing on anything... It doesn't. It's a nice word..... It's one of those big $.50 words..... But it doesn't mean anything with regard to this discussion, nor does it advance your argument... You use the word to do EXACTLY what your username implies you do...

You sound like one of those that has heard the term one too many times on message boards describing our current US policy in Iraq and thought it such a neat term that you'd use it here...... It doesn't work here..... Doesn't matter here....

What would a multi-lateral secession have consisted of pray tell??? Or are we going back to the "The state which wishes to leaves must ask permission from the Federal Government first where they're sure to get a fair shake." argument???

Is that what a "multi-lateral" secession entails in your eyes???
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Old 11-03-2008, 06:57 PM
 
Location: Virginia
6,530 posts, read 8,672,474 times
Reputation: 3036
And honestly I'm like Pacino in Godfather III..... I have no desire to re-spark the entire argument again, just looking for clarity on this one....
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Old 11-03-2008, 07:14 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
10,447 posts, read 5,959,722 times
Reputation: 7583
Rhett_Butler:
Quote:
Semantics might not be the right word, but I'd challenge you to explain to everyone what difference it makes if each state "unilaterally" withdrew from the Union or they all did it in concert???

Doesn't make a difference. You're tossing the word "unilateral" about as though it has any bearing on anything...
Each state withdrew by independent decision. Each state acted unilaterally. That there were numerous entities, each engaging in unilateral action, does not make them a collective. They became a collective only after agreeing to form the Confedracy among them, and that of course was after secession had already taken place. Therefore, without possibility of contradiction, secession was done on a unilateral basis.

And it does not seem to dawn on you that by definition, if they had withdrawn in concert, that would not be unilateral action, that would have been collective action. You do not grasp the obvious distinction?

Finally, I have not made any sort of argument concerning whether collective withdrawal would have been legal while unilateral withdrawal would not. You seem to be laboring under some fantasy that not only have I made such an argument, I have also insisted that it was critical. This has happened only in your head. Please find any sort of quote from me suggestive of my making a legal distinction such as you describe. I have referenced the rebel actions as unilateral because that is what they were. Would you have me deliberately misdescribe them for some reason? I don't get what you beef here is supposed to be.

I am at a loss to understand your comprehension problem with this. The rest of your post was silliness built upon your confusion. You aren't even arguing about something any longer, you are making noises and I'm losing interest.
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Old 11-04-2008, 07:15 AM
 
Location: Virginia
6,530 posts, read 8,672,474 times
Reputation: 3036
Edit: Eh, don't wish to start down this road again.... Been arguing past each other for 12 pages now... Won't do any good to add a 13th...

Last edited by Rhett_Butler; 11-04-2008 at 07:33 AM..
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Old 11-04-2008, 07:24 AM
 
Location: Virginia
6,530 posts, read 8,672,474 times
Reputation: 3036
Quote:
Originally Posted by grandstander
You do not understand, or you do not agree? Obviously a legal argument against secession could be made. The Southern States acted unilaterally, they did not ask "What is the legal procedure for a state that wishes to depart?"
Let's start from the beginning.... Here's the first time you used the word.... Sounds like you're trying to score points with it to me..... Also sounds like you don't know what the word means if you're trying to score points....

So you've admitted above that you aren't trying to advance any argument by saying the South withdrew "unilaterally", but it kinda seems like you are here....

So which is it???

Trust me, I'm as uninterested in arguing with you further about the subject matter of the thread, but found you denying using semantics amusing to say the least.....
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Old 11-04-2008, 07:37 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
10,447 posts, read 5,959,722 times
Reputation: 7583
Rhett:
Quote:
My beef is that describing the act as "unilateral" is a pointless exercise that I personally believe you are throwing in there thinking less astute people will be impressed with the verbiage and suddenly think you must therefore know what you're talking about.....
You have utterly lost track of the context of any of this. The unilateral reference is to the states acting without consulting or seeking permission from any other political or legal process.They acted on their own, they acted unilaterally.

That seems incredibly simple to understand, yet you are unable to do so.

Work on it. You have wasted enough of my time with this.
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Old 11-04-2008, 07:50 AM
 
Location: Virginia
6,530 posts, read 8,672,474 times
Reputation: 3036
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Rhett:


You have utterly lost track of the context of any of this. The unilateral reference is to the states acting without consulting or seeking permission from any other political or legal process.They acted on their own, they acted unilaterally.

That seems incredibly simple to understand, yet you are unable to do so.

Work on it. You have wasted enough of my time with this.
Like I said, been down this road. The very act of secession makes your suggested course of action impossibl if you are going to claim you have the right to do so in the first place...... It's implicit within the very nature of the act that you don't ask permission from the very governmental entity that you find oppressive. It's the Sumter question all over again really.. That is what you have failed to grasp for 15 pages here....

And as quickly as you respond I find it VERY difficult to believe that anyone here is "wasting your time", but whatever...

Last edited by Rhett_Butler; 11-04-2008 at 08:09 AM..
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Old 11-04-2008, 08:09 AM
 
Location: Virginia
6,530 posts, read 8,672,474 times
Reputation: 3036
Anyway, told myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread again so I won't take up any more of your precious time if it can be avoided...
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Old 11-04-2008, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
10,447 posts, read 5,959,722 times
Reputation: 7583
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhett_Butler View Post
Anyway, told myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread again so I won't take up any more of your precious time if it can be avoided...
Well, let's hope you stick to that this time. You have announced your departure several times now.

My parting suggestion to you is to stay out of political debates and instead channel your romantic partisan mentality into a more enjoyable activity for yourself, such as joining one of those re-enactment units. There you can live out your unrecontructed southern fantasies and are unlikley to be disturbed by people such as myself whose positions on issues are devoid of the passions which fuel yours.
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