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Old 05-22-2011, 07:55 AM
 
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How can early civilization be discussed without Ethiopia, Greece, and or the Middle East in general? Ethiopia is referenced throughout the ages and has older monuments than Eygpt.
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Old 05-22-2011, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Planet Water
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Originally Posted by Clark Park View Post
Don't forget Babalu (thank you Desi Arnez) and Baba Ganoush.
Further. It is written: Babylon not a tower. This society - " nation " . Spiritual , social development : " As gods" , it is risen highly " to the sky " ) . That " God "didn't like their idea. It was immoral " to be above that"God ". Naturally, it was necessary to destroy " tower " (to destroy a society) . To mix different societies.
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Old 05-24-2011, 05:02 AM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
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Originally Posted by bayarea-girl View Post
How can early civilization be discussed without Ethiopia, Greece, and or the Middle East in general? Ethiopia is referenced throughout the ages and has older monuments than Egypt.
I believe "Ethiopia" was sometimes used as a blanket-term in ancient times for the lands south of Egypt. So much of "ancient Ethiopia" is really referring more to ancient Sudan or Nubia. Nabta Playa does seem to be a pretty ancient Nubian site, although it's in the modern nation of Egypt it's near the Sudanese border. I don't know that it predates Egyptian sites though.

Ancient Alignments: Scientific American
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Old 05-25-2011, 09:41 AM
 
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ThomasR., sorry you are very wrong. Ethiopia's history is much longer than Egypt. Ethiopia stretched further than what it is today. The stone buildings in Ethiopia are older than the pyramids. Ancient Sudan, nope have you heard of Abyssinia (although Sudan and Somalia were once part of Ethiopia at one point of time)? Greeks, Eygptians, and Jews are profoundly aware of Ethiopia's rich background.
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Old 05-26-2011, 01:37 AM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
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Originally Posted by bayarea-girl View Post
ThomasR., sorry you are very wrong. Ethiopia's history is much longer than Egypt. Ethiopia stretched further than what it is today. The stone buildings in Ethiopia are older than the pyramids. Ancient Sudan, nope have you heard of Abyssinia (although Sudan and Somalia were once part of Ethiopia at one point of time)? Greeks, Eygptians, and Jews are profoundly aware of Ethiopia's rich background.
I have a history degree and about a year of African history so I think I know what I mean. Several grains may have been first cultivated in Ethiopia, but the earliest civilizations there are younger than Egypt's going by what I know.

http://books.google.com/books?id=jX7...istory&f=false

Still perhaps there's been new information in the last decade. If so feel free to cite and thanks for your opinion I guess.
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Old 05-26-2011, 08:45 AM
 
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A year of African history is not enough to be an expert, don't mean to be rude at all. The information/history is not new either. Where were the oldest human remains and tools found? In Ethiopia. With that said, how/why would you think that the beginning started somewhere else?

Ok, links. First I could send you references but they would most likely be in Amharic and not English. There is something lost in translation in some historicial references that the US writes about (most of it is clearly not very accurate and a bit bias, people got too ficated on the Pyramids and Gold they neglected other neighboring countries to discover). But informationial data of Ethiopian history/civilization can be traced back to 10,000 BC.

Timeline

Last edited by bayarea-girl; 05-26-2011 at 09:13 AM..
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Old 11-16-2011, 08:56 AM
 
Location: America
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Originally Posted by NomadicRaider View Post
There has been a great debate of Sumer coming before Egypt. I have done some meticulous studying and thus found out that first King of Egypt was Menes he united the Lower and Upper Kingdom in 3100 BC. Menes Was preceded by the Thinite Kings which was 10 generations before him,secondly Egypt was always an advanced culture from the beginning which means it had to get its Mathematics,Architecture,Astronomy,Religion,and Agriculture from somewhere and sometime before,this would be apparent because that culture would show signs of progression in advancement leaving behind remnants of trial and error of your advancements in technology. Although scholars say Menes was the first the Dynastic king some people say its Narmer who actually unified it but there is not enough evidence to support this claim. The other wonder is that they have other evidence of a people who lived in Naquada around 4000 BC.

What you have to remember is that Egypt has monuments such as the Sphinx that are 30, 000 years old, noted by people like John West. Also we have to define what we mean by advance the people of Sumeria were labeled the most ancient civilization because of the Necropolis and tombs had a lot of ornaments and silver jewelry that dated back 5000 to 7000 years. There is pottery found in South of Egypt that dates back to the Nilo Saharan period about 9000 years ago.

Now I have to disagree about Sumer(Old Babylon) being the cradle of Civilization because even the people that made Babylon progress due to the tribute of the Akkadians ,Assyrians,& Amorites all migrated from Southern Arabia. Linguistic analysis and Geneology will show that the Amorites were western Saudi Arabia and The Akkadians Eastern Saudi Arabia. So that means the left the region of Somalia and Ethiopia which was also predecessor of Egypt. The aboriginal people of the Euphrates and Tigris rivers did not prosper until their arrival .So these nomadic tribes would of have to bring some knowledge to start their civilization in Mesopotamia.

One Important fact is that Nubia was a civilization before Egypt,and Punt was Egypt’s Grandfather. The indigenous people of Punt were called “Agu”. They yielded and bred the people of “Barbara”,then came the Retu which were primarily concentrated in ancient Egypt. All Egyptian Gods were Nubian and even some of the greatest Pharaohs such as Amenhotep and Thutmoses consecrated their Gods in Nubia . Meru, Napata,and Jebel Barkal were significant ancient sites in Egypt.

Osiris' symbol was a crescent moon and was Good of Moon. The Babylonians worshiped the moon God Sin and seemed to derive it from Osiris. An ancient Egyptian Mythology the Sun god Ra was Greater then the moon god but not with Babylonians. The troubling factor is that people claim that the Babylonian King Nimrod was the creator of Masonry but we have no evidence. We just know that we base our modern astrology on their system astrology(no wonder were called the “New Babylon”)


Logically you would figure the earliest points of Migration in the “Paleolithic” would obviously have the earliest points of civilization.


I don’t know how many of you are experts but which civilizations do you think came first “Ancient Egypt” or “Sumer”?
I know this is old but here is some info for you.

Look up ta-seti (land of the bow) you can start here. Another good source for reading is jstor and also google books (a lot of free material). If you read the first article I presented, you can then research the different studies they mention and further your knowledge on Ta-seti (which is in present day Qustul in Northern Sudan). Also, please don't just do a wikipedia search because anyone can post on that thing, actual take some tme, a week or so and research ta-seti. Ta-seti is the progenitor to ancient kmt (egypt). It was at the very least 200 to 300 years older. They were the first to have the hieroglyphs, the first to have pharaohs and the first to have the crown to be worn by later Egyptian pharaohs. So we know these nile valley civilizations are older than the towns of Mesopotamia. Mesopotamia AT BEST is 3400 B.C. If you do research into ancient Kmt (Egypt) you will see many have dated Dynasty 0 to around that same time. So the idea that Mesopotamia was first is rather outlandish. Anyway, now, notice I said towns. Mesopotamia NEVER had a kingdom, they had four towns if I remember right, one of them being Elam (which I believe was one of the older towns). I am not sure how any academic can try and argue Mesopotamia's age given the fact that just to the south of Egypt in present day northern Sudan they have found kingdoms with things Egypt would later have. Also menes/namr came from the south as was stated by Monethos, the Egyptian priest who wrote egyptian history down for one of the Ptolemys. Check this video out
link talks about oldest city found in Africa so far. If you couple this with the Ta-seti/Qustul info you will start to develop the picture.

While I disagree with this guys assertion that Mesopotamia is older I present this video to show that Mesopotamia was little more than towns, NOT kingdoms https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zYJ...layer_embedded which if you think about it is puzzling. You claim Mesopotamia gave rise to civilization and that Egyptians magically learned it from them. HOWEVER, how could the Egyptians have learned something from Mesopotamia that Mesopotamia itself never had, i.e. a kingdom. Also, the first person to "crack" cuniform i.e. the writing system used in ancient Mesopotamia had interesting views on the people and language and origin of the people in one of the towns of Mesopotamia i.e. Elam, you can read his comments in his book called a Memoir of Cuniform. Here is the page in question link also, if your not familiar with the Beja people which the guy in his book makes reference too, you can see what they look like here and they still are in Egypt, The Sudan and Eritrea. I should also mention the man who wrote the above mentioned book was a Englishmen, just in case someone tries to throw around the fallacy that this is just afrocentric propaganda.

Also, I am not sure if you are aware of this fact but there is a problem with Egypt for historians. There is not gradual build up of civilization in Kmt (Egypt). Generally you see the start of small homes, mud brick or straw and mud huts/homes, then they turn into big homes or fully developed/sophisticated homes and palaces (For royalty). then you see a under developed religion that starts to fully mature etc. In Egypt there is none of that. There is just nothing and then over night there is places that are full developed and sophisticated and the same goes for the religion. So obviously it is not indigenous to Egypt. However we know it didn't come from Mesopotamia because they had nothing of its like in their own area. The ONLY place that has a older KINGDOM, again is Ta-seti. Then there is another old civilization that was on Sai Island, I believe it was older than Ta-seti and also had writing, pharaohs etc. If I can find the documentation on that I will post it for those interested. Also, look up Napta Playa, which is a area in the eastern part of the sahara. They have paintings of some of the "Egyptian" neter (divine natures) like Anubis and Hathor. These paintings of the "Egyptian dieties" were done HUNDREDS of years before egypt developed, so again we see that Egypt was a indigenous development, not something introduced from outside of Africa. We also know the people in Napta Playa were Africans because they painted themselves on rock walls in the area and its pretty clear what they were ethnically.

Here is a personal page someone put together about Nubia Who are the Nubians? again research what is there. You can find a lot of info on jstor, google books and just searching google itself. You should also be able to turn up some New York Times articles on the subject.

I bring up Nubia because this is the place where Ta-seti was and many other kingdoms that were older than Egypt. We also have to be careful with the name "Nubia", it is a fake name. That name was not put in use until the middle ages by Europeans around the 1600s A.D. or so. In dynastic Egypt there was never a Nubia or a Nubian people. The people were just Egyptian, period. One of the major cities in that area which is now called nubia is wawat. But again, a ancient egyptian would have NEVER used the term Nubia, the word is of European origin, just as the name Ethiopia is. There never was a historic Ethiopia as called by Africans. The current country of Ethiopia got its name in 1974. If you find OLD european maps of Africa, they called all of Africa Ethiopia (it was a greek term) and the Atlantic Ocean was called the ethiopian ocean once upon a time (again, by Europeans, not Africans). Anyway, if you try to research the articles in that link on Nubia I provided you will find they are real. I was able to find the one from the Times, but can't remember the link.

If you are interested in finding the origin of Egypt, read a book called "Black Gensis" by Robert Bauval. Very slow read but shows archaeological evidence that shows were it came from.

I don't check this section of the forum that much, if anyone is interested in more info, feel free to send me a message. I can dig up more info, I am just pressed for time right now other wise I wold give more info.

Lastly, there was a kingdom that one profess claims dates back to almost 30,000 years ago. He says it was in Uganda called the Buganda kingdom. He claimed this is where the Menes/Namr came from and that he brought the idea of kingdoms to Egypt from that region. I wont post what I know about it here because I have not done enough research on it yet. History is a hobby of mine, so I read extensively on the subject, specifically as it relates to Africa.

Also check out this video series. this guy is a anthropologist and provides scientific evidence on the peopling of Ancient Egypt. He mainly speaks about the time period between Dynasty 0 (the old Kingdom) to the start of the New Kingdom (18th dynasty rulers) I think its a 6 part series
link if I remember, this series was done at Cambridge University. he is also affiliated with the Smithsonian Institute. In this series he also talks about the linguistic origins of the language spoken in Ancient Egypt. believe it or not there are still people speaking that language. If I remember right, they live in Chad now. If you really feel adventurous you should research the origins of many of the kingdoms in present day west africa. By kingdoms I speak of Yoruba peoples, Mende, Temne, Ashanti, Dogon etc. Where did they come from? What does their folk history say they came from? You will be surprised.

Anyway I know this was long as heck but I hope it helps your studies.
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Old 11-16-2011, 09:01 AM
 
Location: America
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Originally Posted by bayarea-girl View Post
A year of African history is not enough to be an expert, don't mean to be rude at all. The information/history is not new either. Where were the oldest human remains and tools found? In Ethiopia. With that said, how/why would you think that the beginning started somewhere else?

Ok, links. First I could send you references but they would most likely be in Amharic and not English. There is something lost in translation in some historicial references that the US writes about (most of it is clearly not very accurate and a bit bias, people got too ficated on the Pyramids and Gold they neglected other neighboring countries to discover). But informationial data of Ethiopian history/civilization can be traced back to 10,000 BC.

Timeline
Hello,

We should be careful when we say "Ethiopia". Remember it is better to say Habasha or even refer to Axum (the ancient kingdom). It was this Haile Selassie that adopted that greek name "Ethiopia" for Habasha in the 1970s. I believe they should change the name back. By changing names of places, this only helps to distort the history and disconnect the people from their origins and history. Speaking of Axum, I have a great article about when Axum ruled over the middle east, before the time of Islam (as spoken about in the Quran in Surat al Fil). It is from the British Museum. If I find it, I will post it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bayarea-girl View Post
ThomasR., sorry you are very wrong. Ethiopia's history is much longer than Egypt. Ethiopia stretched further than what it is today. The stone buildings in Ethiopia are older than the pyramids. Ancient Sudan, nope have you heard of Abyssinia (although Sudan and Somalia were once part of Ethiopia at one point of time)? Greeks, Eygptians, and Jews are profoundly aware of Ethiopia's rich background.
you are confusing history a bit. Ethiopia was the name of ALL of Africa, at least from the Greek perspective. Africans never called themselves Ethiopians nor did they ever name any area in Africa Ethiopia. This is of greek origin, I forget the literal meaning of the word. It has to do with black skin though if I remember right. This is how it was written in Greek Αἰθίοψ and in latin letter it would be spelled Aithiops and if you put Αἰθίοψ in Google translate, and go from Greek to English it translates as "Negro". Although I thought it meant something like Burnt Face (literally). Anyway, If you google old maps of the world from like 1400s or before, I think you should be able to see some that have the entire continent of Africa being called "Ethiopia" and the Atlantic ocean being called "Ethiopian Ocean". There were MANY kingdoms between southern Egypt and what is now called Ethiopia. For example you had Yam, Punt, Ta-seti/Kush and then of course Ta-merri, which is what Egyptians called the land of Egypt back then it mean the beloved land.

There has been a huge disservice to African history. As Africans (my family is from S. Leone) we need to reclaim this history. We need to educate ourselves on what our fathers called these kingdoms, how they lived and what they contributed not only to the land we now called Africa, but to the world at large.

Last edited by Wild Style; 11-16-2011 at 09:10 AM..
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Old 11-16-2011, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Planet Water
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" For detection of the true situation connected to moving of the people in the Near East and in the North Africa, we will consider propagation of archaeological cultures to this region during time, close to decay nostratic and afrasian families of languages.
On all territory of Southern and East Africa in 39 – 36 BC was spread : sangois culture , acheulian paleoantrops. In east, Central, Northern and the Western Africa to 10th thousand BC sangois cultures are replaced lupembs by culture acheulian paleoantrops . And with 32 - 5 thousand BC in Northern and the Western Africa the culture [2305] created mustie by "Neanderthal men" negroid of type . These - are native cultures of Africa. Normally languages of "Neanderthal men" aren't taken into account, but, meanwhile, in our opinion, representatives of the native African cultures were of the languages today carried by a science to the African family. Now we will consider alien cultures. The first wave of settling has taken place from territory of Spain. 10 – 8 BC the North Africa : ibero-Mauritian (oransk) cultures [2301] – Neanderthal men , Iberian type . And in 9 – 5th thousand BC - Neanderthal Caspian by the culture which has spread in the North Africa and the Mediterranean [575 – 577].

The second wave to 5 thousand BC to delta of Nile have come European tribes of cultures of colored ceramics .

Last edited by eloy; 11-16-2011 at 07:52 PM..
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Old 11-16-2011, 08:22 PM
 
Location: America
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Originally Posted by eloy View Post
" For detection of the true situation connected to moving of the people in the Near East and in the North Africa, we will consider propagation of archaeological cultures to this region during time, close to decay nostratic and afrasian families of languages.
On all territory of Southern and East Africa in 39 – 36 BC was spread : sangois culture , acheulian paleoantrops. In east, Central, Northern and the Western Africa to 10th thousand BC sangois cultures are replaced lupembs by culture acheulian paleoantrops . And with 32 - 5 thousand BC in Northern and the Western Africa the culture [2305] created mustie by "Neanderthal men" negroid of type . These - are native cultures of Africa. Normally languages of "Neanderthal men" aren't taken into account, but, meanwhile, in our opinion, representatives of the native African cultures were of the languages today carried by a science to the African family. Now we will consider alien cultures. The first wave of settling has taken place from territory of Spain. 10 – 8 BC the North Africa : ibero-Mauritian (oransk) cultures [2301] – Neanderthal men , Iberian type . And in 9 – 5th thousand BC - Neanderthal Caspian by the culture which has spread in the North Africa and the Mediterranean [575 – 577].

The second wave to 5 thousand BC to delta of Nile have come European tribes of cultures of colored ceramics .
Can you provide us with a link to a actual study claiming proof of europeans inhabiting the nile valley at 5,000 b.c.? They have done cranial and limb ratio studies of ancient egyptians and they relate directly to present day upper egyptians, and upper egyptians are black africans. You can find the information of those studies in one of the videos I posted. It was a lecture given by Professor Omar Keita who is a anthropologist. There are no loan words in ancient egyptians language either that are outside of Africa and the same pottery found in egypt can be found in the kingdom to the south of it, i.e. qustul/ta-seti
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