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Can you provide us with a link to a actual study claiming proof of europeans inhabiting the nile valley at 5,000 b.c.? They have done cranial and limb ratio studies of ancient egyptians and they relate directly to present day upper egyptians, and upper egyptians are black africans. You can find the information of those studies in one of the videos I posted. It was a lecture given by Professor Omar Keita who is a anthropologist. There are no loan words in ancient egyptians language either that are outside of Africa and the same pottery found in egypt can be found in the kingdom to the south of it, i.e. qustul/ta-seti
Probably. Not in English. You did not see the image on walls and sculptures? I think it enough.
Probably. Ancient Africans in Egypt in the African language.
Plural governments - other subject. Here it is necessary to mark one important circumstance: ancient Egyptian language – dead. Yes ?
I think there has been a lot of concept drift in this thread.
The question is not about who built monuments and when. The question is, what was social organization like in the world before the Egyptians and Sumerians left durable information that would allow us to look into theirs. How did people live, on a day to day basis, interrelating with others in their society?
Can we assume that pre-Egyptian life was pretty much the same as the Egyptians, but only lacking an incentive to create and leave clues about their cultures? Or was there a sea change at that time, in the way humanity was organized? If so, how did the lives of ordinary Egyptians differ from the lives of their predecessors, and what triggered the change?
What you have to remember is that Egypt has monuments such as the Sphinx that are 30, 000 years old, noted by people like John West. Also we have to define what we mean by advance the people of Sumeria were labeled the most ancient civilization because of the Necropolis and tombs had a lot of ornaments and silver jewelry that dated back 5000 to 7000 years. There is pottery found in South of Egypt that dates back to the Nilo Saharan period about 9000 years ago.
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How did i miss this thread over the last several years?
Firstly John West has never stated the Sphinx was built some 30,000 years ago but ''possibly'' during the Age of Leo (10,500 b.c. - 8,000 b.c.) as he believes that the original Sphinx head was that of a lion and not a canine as most egyptologists currently believe.
As for your original question as to who was there before the Sumerians or Egyptians?? How would we truely know as there was no written language before 3,500 b.c. however archaeologically it's easier to solve as the highly intelligent ''Natufian Culture'' peoples had occupied the entire region from around 10,000 b.c. - 4,000 b.c.
Which super intelligent peoples some 6,000 years before the Sumerians or Egyptians built Gobekli Tepe approximately 9,000 b.c.??
Probably. Not in English. You did not see the image on walls and sculptures? I think it enough.
Probably. Ancient Africans in Egypt in the African language.
Plural governments - other subject. Here it is necessary to mark one important circumstance: ancient Egyptian language – dead. Yes ?
You have to understand Egyptian history before declaring a picture on a wall proves ancient Egyptians weren’t African. It is a fact that Menes came from the south. It is a fact that DNA test show the ancient mummies are African.
Now around the 21 dynasty or so is when non Africans took over Egypt. This is after 3,000 years of history. It was a Libyan if I remember right and he only ruled North Egypt (Lower Egypt) not the entirety of Egypt. He was weak and through him the Persians were able to conquer. The Theban (African) kings then struck back and kicked out the Persians. Later the Persians would come back again. Then came the Greeks via alexander the great. I would also mention that the Greeks were not able to study in Egypt until the Persians had come in and allowed them to study there. It was at this time the Greeks became enlightened. This has been attested to by Herodotus, Pythagareous and many others. Then came the Romans, then the Arabs, then the Turks, then the French and British. The white people of Egypt came in MUCH later had NOTHING to do with the founding of Egypt, neither its political system nor its sciences> Egyptians were very racist in the since they did not even allow non-Africans to study in their systems, that is a fact. Now you will read some commentators stating that the ancient Egyptians hated Nubians. The problem with that silliness is, there was never a place historically called Nubia. That was a name introduced around the 1600s A.D. but historically there was never an area called Nubia, no African ever called themselves Nubians and there was no ethnic group called Nubia. Even today the people they called Nubians are not even one group, there are ethnic groups among these so called Nubians. Anyway, the pictures of white people in Egypt generally date to the Greco Roman period. Relying on pictures without understanding history is to take a thing out of context. We have plenty of DNA and anthropological data that shows and proves who the indigenous people of Egypt were/are. They are still there in Upper Egypt and they are black, always have been and always will be. I provided more than enough ample proof from actual scientist in the field that validates my statements.
As for the langauge, no it isn't dead. I have seen two historians make mention of at least one or two ethnic groups in Chad that are still speaking middle egyptian. You have to remember many of the ethnic groups that created kingdoms in other parts of Africa migrated from the Nile Valley. namely Yoruba, Songhay just to state a few. When I can, I will post the name of the ethnic group that speak ancient kmtic (egyptian) language. The name escapes me right now.
P.S>
Also think about this. So we are to believe that some magical Europeans who built nothing of significants in europe came ALL the way to Africa and built a massive civilization, does that make sense to you? There has to be a precedents. By that I mean, ok you don't see a Bugatti pop up over night. First there was a model T ford and as technology progressed we get better and better cars until the Bugatti was able to be produced. The same for civilization, there is nothing in Europe or Middle East that matches Egypt in terms of technology, religion, social structure etc. However we do have a precedent for it in Africa in Ta-seti, Sai, Punt, Yam etc.
Last edited by Wild Style; 11-17-2011 at 09:44 AM..
I think there has been a lot of concept drift in this thread.
The question is not about who built monuments and when. The question is, what was social organization like in the world before the Egyptians and Sumerians left durable information that would allow us to look into theirs. How did people live, on a day to day basis, interrelating with others in their society?
Can we assume that pre-Egyptian life was pretty much the same as the Egyptians, but only lacking an incentive to create and leave clues about their cultures? Or was there a sea change at that time, in the way humanity was organized? If so, how did the lives of ordinary Egyptians differ from the lives of their predecessors, and what triggered the change?
From the original post this thread is about the following:
Quote:
I don’t know how many of you are experts but which civilizations do you think came first “Ancient Egypt†or “Sumer�
I think there has been a lot of concept drift in this thread.
The question is not about who built monuments and when. The question is, what was social organization like in the world before the Egyptians and Sumerians left durable information that would allow us to look into theirs. How did people live, on a day to day basis, interrelating with others in their society?
Can we assume that pre-Egyptian life was pretty much the same as the Egyptians, but only lacking an incentive to create and leave clues about their cultures? Or was there a sea change at that time, in the way humanity was organized? If so, how did the lives of ordinary Egyptians differ from the lives of their predecessors, and what triggered the change?
This is why I hate people bringing up threads from the dead. Or answering threads that go beyond 5 pages. For one thing, you have to remember if you answered it back 6 months ago or not. For another thing, the topic drifts, from the last 6 posts it seems everyone is going into different tangents.
Anyways the above I can answer. There was a sea change of sorts. The environment in that part of the world changed. Around 8,000 BC or so the Saharaha started to dry up and turn to desert. Civilization was about - various hunter gather groups domesticated animals and grew crops, but they were nomadic, there was no common culture or organization since they moved around. So when desertification occured they settled to the only fertile ground around - the nile. They built fixed dwellings and permanent settlements. Natural evolution turned these small settlements into larger, more organized settlements, with common cultures and language, develope trading and economy, which in turn developed into a unified dynastic egypt in about 3,000 BC.
People are still arguing ethinicity of the egyptians, which in my opinion is a non-topic and does not belong in this tread at all! Egyptologyts typically don't worry about if they were black or white. Mainly since race is not even a scientific concept. It's simply not releveant. There is already a 30 page topic on that titled "Was Cleopatra black or white" and that's had some really crazy and overwrought contributions by a few crazies that claim to be experts on the subject.
This is why I hate people bringing up threads from the dead. Or answering threads that go beyond 5 pages. For one thing, you have to remember if you answered it back 6 months ago or not. For another thing, the topic drifts, from the last 6 posts it seems everyone is going into different tangents.
Anyways the above I can answer. There was a sea change of sorts. The environment in that part of the world changed. Around 8,000 BC or so the Saharaha started to dry up and turn to desert. Civilization was about - various hunter gather groups domesticated animals and grew crops, but they were nomadic, there was no common culture or organization since they moved around. So when desertification occured they settled to the only fertile ground around - the nile. They built fixed dwellings and permanent settlements. Natural evolution turned these small settlements into larger, more organized settlements, with common cultures and language, develope trading and economy, which in turn developed into a unified dynastic egypt in about 3,000 BC.
People are still arguing ethinicity of the egyptians, which in my opinion is a non-topic and does not belong in this tread at all! Egyptologyts typically don't worry about if they were black or white. Mainly since race is not even a scientific concept. It's simply not releveant. There is already a 30 page topic on that titled "Was Cleopatra black or white" and that's had some really crazy and overwrought contributions by a few crazies that claim to be experts on the subject.
Yes, the Sahara did dry up; however there was a common culture. How do we know this? Well from some of the artifacts left behind, we see there was a common religion. There are sculptures and wall paintings in the Sahara desert that show what looks like Anubis and Hathor (which were also divinities in Ancient Egypt). Also at Napta Playa we see they were going there to track the movement of the stars, specifically the star Sirius. In order to build the structures they built and do what they were doing which was tracking Sirius (which the ancient egyptians also did) there had to have been a shared culture. Dispersed groups of unrelated people do not show this level of cooperation.
as for the race of Egyptians you don't seem to read much. Go look at the writings of Dr. Hawas who routinely brings up his opinion that the ancient Egyptians weren't black "because the people in the statues had thin lips". If you read writings form James Henry Breasted (Egyptologist from the early 1800s) specifically in the first volume of a series of books he wrote titled Ancient Records of Egypt. The same is true of many other later authors. They may not use the term "race" but they will use terms like ethnicity. Other authors who have addressed the ethnic origin of ancient Egypt include Diop, Bernal, Keita, Gerald Massey, Basil Davidson etc. just to name a few (all of which I have read myself). This isn't just relegated to Ancient Egypt, in his book Memoirs of Cuneiform Rawlinson make mention of the ethnic origins of Ancient Mesopotamia, specifically Elam which he believed were West Africans (he is the man who actually cracked Cuneiform). So, don't be so quick to be dismissive of issues you don't seem to have a grasp on yourself. Any notable book on ancient Egypt is going to go back to the prehistory. While they may not say "black" they are discussing the ethnic origins of the people, which is where you get words like A Group, B Group, C Group, Naubtins etc. Also, since the original question was, "which was first Sumer or Egypt" one must discuss the precursors to Ancient Egypt. You do this to show the antiquity of that civilization and what came before it. All this entails talking about what lead up to Ancient Egypt, i.e. the precursors which lay to the south of Egypt in Ta-seti, Punt, Yam etc.
Even to this day africans with traditional religions have a lot of commonality showing there is a shared group that spawned these other groups. All shared in civilization in the Sahara and when it gradually changed groups broke out in groups and moved east, west and south.
Read about Napta Playa here <---gives condensed information from many sources with citations included.
Another cool one with video at end about civilizations in Sahara here
Tried to find pictures in the Sahara of the neters (divinities) Anubis and Hathor but cant find it right now. If you get Robert Bauvals book Black Genesis you should be able to see at least Hathor carved on what looked to be a granite rock in the Sahara. It also was equated with Hathor because there was also a sculpture of a cow and Hathor was equated with a cow. Other things you will see in paintings in the Sahara (when it was green) was pictures of Men riding on what looked to be chariots, which throws a wet blanket on the theory the well was developed in Mesopotamia. I can't think of any good books off the top of my head that goes really in depth with what has been found in the Sahara but if i think of one I will post it. Most of my information came from reading peer reviewed papers that have been submitted by archeologist/anthropologist etc.
Last edited by Wild Style; 11-17-2011 at 11:15 AM..
(condensed your response)
haha, you will fit perfectly into the other thread. I will say again that race is not a scientific concept, it's a social concept. Scientifically speaking, all humans belong to one race - homo sapiens. There is not a test in the world - DNA, blood type, etc, that will determine a persons "race" in terms of color of skin. What you are talking about is geographic ancestory.
For the rest of your post, I read alot, I travel alot, including to Egypt. What you talk about reading or viewing in pictures, I have seen in person. But your response runs on, and I don't have time to respond to it all, and it is also offtopic. You will, however, find adequate and equally overwrought and pretensious discussion in the aforementioned thread "was cleopatra white..." Knock yourself out.
You can explain. Why we have similar attributes. For example: ducks, horns on a head (on a cap ), Statues , identical words, the most ancient settlements.... Why? Or Africans have arrived to the Eastern Europe? Or .. ? But. The new theory: In territory of Egypt people of the modern type have appeared later. 10 000 АD the migration wave has gone to Africa, the East... Where those groups of people ?
You can explain. Why we have similar attributes. For example: ducks, horns on a head (on a cap ), Statues , identical words, the most ancient settlements.... Why? Or Africans have arrived to the Eastern Europe? Or .. ? But. The new theory: In territory of Egypt people of the modern type have appeared later. 10 000 АD the migration wave has gone to Africa, the East... Where those groups of people ?
Everything your asking has been answered in the videos i posted previously.
for any further proofs, just go look at my previous post. They have not found ONE skeleton in early dynastic egypt among the ruling class that even closely relates to a european. Also as I said, you think ancient europeans came to africa 4,000 years ago and built kingdoms, yet they neglected to build any in Europe at that early date? Does that make sense to you?
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