Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Location: West Los Angeles and Rancho Palos Verdes
13,583 posts, read 15,649,867 times
Reputation: 14046
Advertisements
Is there an official name for it -- the one where a troop ship was sunk where Brits were on board, and numerous U-Boats allowed survivors to climb on deck and even towed a few life boats -- the U-Boats displayed an improvised flag of England on their decks and did not fire AA at the B-24, nevertheless the B-24 dropped ordnance and killed Brits? I know quite a few U-Boats took on survivors, but in this case they were knowingly attacked in the process by the Allies and the ASW B-24 was given a green light by their HQ.
Is there an official name for it -- the one where a troop ship was sunk where Brits were on board, and numerous U-Boats allowed survivors to climb on deck and even towed a few life boats -- the U-Boats displayed an improvised flag of England on their decks and did not fire AA at the B-24, nevertheless the B-24 dropped ordnance and killed Brits? I know quite a few U-Boats took on survivors, but in this case they were knowingly attacked in the process by the Allies and the ASW B-24 was given a green light by their HQ.
I belive what you are refering to is the The Laconia Incident. The story of the Laconia Incident began on the morning of September 12 1942. U-156 was on patrol in the South Atlantic, off the bulge of West Africa, midway between Liberia and the Ascension Island. Commanded by KL Werner Hartenstein, she was one of the many Type IXCs stationed along the west coast of Africa. While heading southward on the surface, the cry of a lookout brought Hartenstein to the bridge of the U-boat. Their attention was fixated on the silhouette of a large British ship, sailing alone in the distant horizon, southwest of their position. That location was about 500 miles off the African coast and at an area frequently patrolled by allied planes based out of Freetown. Hartenstein altered course to run parallel with the ship, keeping the smoke in sight and staying far out of sight until he could close the gap when night has fallen. He would soon learn that his target was the 20,000 ton British Cunard Star Liner, the Laconia. At the outbreak of war, the Laconia had been converted into a troopship, armed with deck guns, depth charges and asdic equipment. This made her a legitimate military target. As soon as sunset approached, Hartenstein closed his target and by 10pm, U-156 was in position. With the allied ship in his crosshairs, he fired two torpedoes from a range of about two miles. After a run of about three minutes, both torpedoes found their target and almost immediately the Laconia stopped dead in the water and began to list. Hartenstein surfaces and makes his way to the stricken ship to try to capture senior military officers. In the fading sunlight, crew members of the U-156 could see survivors struggling in the water, some in lifeboats, but many in the sea. The scene was in total chaos, with burning wreckage lighting up the night sky, there were floating corpses, overcrowded lifeboats, frantic swimmers and panic cries for help.
As he approached the beleaguered survivors, the crew of U-156 was astonished to hear the sounds of Italian voices. “Aiuto, aiuto”, the cries for help in Italian. Puzzled, he takes on a few survivors and soon discovers the true situation aboard the Laconia. As it turned out, she was carrying 2,732 passengers; 136 crew, 285 British soldiers, 80 civilians including women and children, 160 Polish guards and 1,800 Italian prisoners of war. It was not the troopship that he had imagined.
Realizing his error, Hartenstein immediately launches a rescue operation. Hundreds of survivors were picked up, including civilian women and children, with many crammed inside the submarine, on the upper deck and a further 200 survivors in tow aboard four lifeboats. He also called for assistance from nearby U-boats and broadcasted a radio message in plain English, providing his position and requesting aid from any nearby vessels, promising a suspension of hostilities while rescue operations were underway. U-156 remained on the surface for two and a half days providing aid to the beleaguered survivors.
Meanwhile, back in U-boat headquarters in Paris, Donitz was startled by Hartenstein’s actions. Although he ordered for no such rescues to take place, this time he not only allowed it, but nevertheless supported it. Donitz would explain many years later, “to give them an order contrary to the laws of humanity would have destroyed it (the crews morale) utterly”.
Home » U-Boat Historical Battles » Laconia Incident
The Laconia Incident
The story of the Laconia Incident began on the morning of September 12 1942. U-156 was on patrol in the South Atlantic, off the bulge of West Africa, midway between Liberia and the Ascension Island. Commanded by KL Werner Hartenstein, she was one of the many Type IXCs stationed along the west coast of Africa. While heading southward on the surface, the cry of a lookout brought Hartenstein to the bridge of the U-boat. Their attention was fixated on the silhouette of a large British ship, sailing alone in the distant horizon, southwest of their position. That location was about 500 miles off the African coast and at an area frequently patrolled by allied planes based out of Freetown. Hartenstein altered course to run parallel with the ship, keeping the smoke in sight and staying far out of sight until he could close the gap when night has fallen.
He would soon learn that his target was the 20,000 ton British Cunard Star Liner, the Laconia. At the outbreak of war, the Laconia had been converted into a troopship, armed with deck guns, depth charges and asdic equipment. This made her a legitimate military target.
Survivors of the sunken Laconia cramped on the upper deck of U-156 (Werner Hartenstein). Civilian women and children including the wife of the governer of Malta was among the survivors rescued by U-boats.
As soon as sunset approached, Hartenstein closed his target and by 10pm, U-156 was in position. With the allied ship in his crosshairs, he fired two torpedoes from a range of about two miles. After a run of about three minutes, both torpedoes found their target and almost immediately the Laconia stopped dead in the water and began to list. Hartenstein surfaces and makes his way to the stricken ship to try to capture senior military officers. In the fading sunlight, crew members of the U-156 could see survivors struggling in the water, some in lifeboats, but many in the sea. The scene was in total chaos, with burning wreckage lighting up the night sky, there were floating corpses, overcrowded lifeboats, frantic swimmers and panic cries for help.
As he approached the beleaguered survivors, the crew of U-156 was astonished to hear the sounds of Italian voices. “Aiuto, aiuto”, the cries for help in Italian. Puzzled, he takes on a few survivors and soon discovers the true situation aboard the Laconia. As it turned out, she was carrying 2,732 passengers; 136 crew, 285 British soldiers, 80 civilians including women and children, 160 Polish guards and 1,800 Italian prisoners of war. It was not the troopship that he had imagined.
Realizing his error, Hartenstein immediately launches a rescue operation. Hundreds of survivors were picked up, including civilian women and children, with many crammed inside the submarine, on the upper deck and a further 200 survivors in tow aboard four lifeboats. He also called for assistance from nearby U-boats and broadcasted a radio message in plain English, providing his position and requesting aid from any nearby vessels, promising a suspension of hostilities while rescue operations were underway. U-156 remained on the surface for two and a half days providing aid to the beleaguered survivors.
Meanwhile, back in U-boat headquarters in Paris, Donitz was startled by Hartenstein’s actions. Although he ordered for no such rescues to take place, this time he not only allowed it, but nevertheless supported it. Donitz would explain many years later, “to give them an order contrary to the laws of humanity would have destroyed it (the crews morale) utterly”.
Erich Wurdeman of U-506 arrives two days later and joins in the rescue.
To speed up the rescue operation, he ordered three more U-boats to speed to Hartenstein’s aid. Flying the Red Cross flag, U-506 (Erich Wurdeman) and U-507 (Harro Schacht) arrived two days later, just around noon of September 15. They were later joined by an Italian submarine Cappelini. These four submarines shepherded the survivors, with lifeboats in tow and hundreds standing on the decks of the U-boat, they made towards the African coastline for a rendezvous with Vichy French warships dispatched as part of the rescue.
The next morning, September 16, at 11.25am, this concentration of U-boats was spotted by an American B-24 Liberator bomber operating out of Ascension island. The survivors waved and the U-boats signaled for help. As Red Cross flags were draped over their decks, the pilot Lieutenant James D. Harden turned away and radioed back to base for instructions. The officer on duty that day Captain Robert C. Richardson III replied with the order to attack.
Half an hour later, Harden flew back and the survivors felt a sigh of relief on seeing the returning aircraft. They had expected a drop of supplies, of the much needed food and medicine. Instead, they were attacked with a concentration of bombs and depth charges. One bomb landed amidst a lifeboat and hundreds perished during that attack. U-156 was slightly damaged and forced to submerge, leaving hundreds of victims struggling in the water. All the submarines dived and escaped, although U-506 and U-507 returned to the area later, unwilling to desert the people they had saved. Fortunately, Vichy French warships from Dakar arrived the next day and picked up the remaining survivors, so the loss of life from the American action was contained. In total, there were about 1,621 deaths with 1,111 survivors, including those already taken aboard the overcrowded U-boats. This incident left a foul bitterness in the U-boat war that would cast a long shadow over Donitz and his seamen.
The action of Captain Richardson was considered by many as a war crime, although no formal charges were ever placed. As a result of this incident, Admiral Donitz issued an order forbidding U-boats from attempting any rescues and furthermore, from providing any assistance whatsoever to survivors of submarine attacks. He was quoted to say “no attempt of any kind must be made to rescue the crews of ships sunk”. This order became to be known as the “Laconia Order”. Up until now, it was common for U-boats to aid survivors of their attack by providing provisions and pointing out the direction closest to land. Despite the order, some U-boat commanders continued in their practice to aid survivors of their attacks.
After the war, Donitz stood trial for war crimes and the Laconia order was used as a basis of indictment against him. Most surprisingly, he received support from some of the most respected figures in the US Navy, Admital Chester Nimitz who came to his defense and said that the United States had operated under the same engagements of unrestricted warfare. Despite the evidence of allied practice, Donitz was convicted of war crimes by the Nuremberg Tribunal and sentenced to 11 and a half years in prison. The U-boat crews deeply resented this action and felt that they were being prosecuted for the threat they had posed to the allies rather than for war crimes
Location: West Los Angeles and Rancho Palos Verdes
13,583 posts, read 15,649,867 times
Reputation: 14046
Yes, that's it. I erroneously thought it was a "red cross flag" as in the flag of England which was what the British naval ensign was based on, not the flag of the Red Cross.
Furthermore, this incident should be made into a movie, but alas Hollywood's Germanophobia will not allow for a film to be made showing any Germans during WWII acting gallantly, whilst also showing the U.S. did indeed commit "war crimes" during WWII. They'll show U-boat commanders machine gunning the survivors of a sinking ship (which allegedly only happened once out of the thousands of ships sunk by U-Boats from 1939-45), but not this incident.
Let's face it war is brutal. War crimes have always been committed on every side of every war. My father was a WW2 vet and saw a great deal of combat in Europe. He never talked much about what he went through, but it was always very obvious that there was a dislike for Germans. I am sure many German soldiers were killed in non-combat situations just because they were the enemy. The same can be said the other way around. I think because of other incidents that occured during the war, mainly the holocaust, the Germans during WW2 will never be looked at favorably, not only by Hollywood, but to the rest of the world as well.
Furthermore, this incident should be made into a movie, but alas Hollywood's Germanophobia will not allow for a film to be made showing any Germans during WWII acting gallantly, whilst also showing the U.S. did indeed commit "war crimes" during WWII. They'll show U-boat commanders machine gunning the survivors of a sinking ship (which allegedly only happened once out of the thousands of ships sunk by U-Boats from 1939-45), but not this incident.
Location: Finally escaped The People's Republic of California
11,306 posts, read 8,652,146 times
Reputation: 6391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exitus Acta Probat
, whilst also showing the U.S. did indeed commit "war crimes" during WWII. They'll show U-boat commanders machine gunning the survivors of a sinking ship (which allegedly only happened once out of the thousands of ships sunk by U-Boats from 1939-45), but not this incident.
Dude just watch the History Chanell, they'll show American Submarines surfacing after attacking Japanese Ships, not to rescue the survivors but to have target practise on them. Much as they did to ours..War is Hell..Get over it..
Yes, that's it. I erroneously thought it was a "red cross flag" as in the flag of England which was what the British naval ensign was based on, not the flag of the Red Cross.
Furthermore, this incident should be made into a movie, but alas Hollywood's Germanophobia will not allow for a film to be made showing any Germans during WWII acting gallantly, whilst also showing the U.S. did indeed commit "war crimes" during WWII. They'll show U-boat commanders machine gunning the survivors of a sinking ship (which allegedly only happened once out of the thousands of ships sunk by U-Boats from 1939-45), but not this incident.
The BBC has made a rather well done documentary on the incident which was shown on American television. I think we are dealing with a case where the actions and tactics of the u-boats led to mistakes being made. The B-24 had no idea that Hartenstein had sent the message that he did. The u-boats often employed various tricks to disguise themselves and had no issue firing on any vessel regardless of its mission.
As far as I am aware, FDR or Churchill never issued an order to their forces to machine gun all survivors...Hitler did, though in his 'defesne' it was only because taking prisoners at sea would burden the u-boats. Thankfully not all German commanders, especially the naval officers who had a more restrained 'love' for the fuhrer made a habit of actually following all of their orders.
I belive what you are refering to is the The Laconia Incident. The story of the Laconia Incident began on the morning of September 12 1942. U-156 was on patrol in the South Atlantic, off the bulge of West Africa, midway between Liberia and the Ascension Island. Commanded by KL Werner Hartenstein, she was one of the many Type IXCs stationed along the west coast of Africa. While heading southward on the surface, the cry of a lookout brought Hartenstein to the bridge of the U-boat. Their attention was fixated on the silhouette of a large British ship, sailing alone in the distant horizon, southwest of their position. That location was about 500 miles off the African coast and at an area frequently patrolled by allied planes based out of Freetown. Hartenstein altered course to run parallel with the ship, keeping the smoke in sight and staying far out of sight until he could close the gap when night has fallen. He would soon learn that his target was the 20,000 ton British Cunard Star Liner, the Laconia. At the outbreak of war, the Laconia had been converted into a troopship, armed with deck guns, depth charges and asdic equipment. This made her a legitimate military target. As soon as sunset approached, Hartenstein closed his target and by 10pm, U-156 was in position. With the allied ship in his crosshairs, he fired two torpedoes from a range of about two miles. After a run of about three minutes, both torpedoes found their target and almost immediately the Laconia stopped dead in the water and began to list. Hartenstein surfaces and makes his way to the stricken ship to try to capture senior military officers. In the fading sunlight, crew members of the U-156 could see survivors struggling in the water, some in lifeboats, but many in the sea. The scene was in total chaos, with burning wreckage lighting up the night sky, there were floating corpses, overcrowded lifeboats, frantic swimmers and panic cries for help.
As he approached the beleaguered survivors, the crew of U-156 was astonished to hear the sounds of Italian voices. “Aiuto, aiuto”, the cries for help in Italian. Puzzled, he takes on a few survivors and soon discovers the true situation aboard the Laconia. As it turned out, she was carrying 2,732 passengers; 136 crew, 285 British soldiers, 80 civilians including women and children, 160 Polish guards and 1,800 Italian prisoners of war. It was not the troopship that he had imagined.
Realizing his error, Hartenstein immediately launches a rescue operation. Hundreds of survivors were picked up, including civilian women and children, with many crammed inside the submarine, on the upper deck and a further 200 survivors in tow aboard four lifeboats. He also called for assistance from nearby U-boats and broadcasted a radio message in plain English, providing his position and requesting aid from any nearby vessels, promising a suspension of hostilities while rescue operations were underway. U-156 remained on the surface for two and a half days providing aid to the beleaguered survivors.
Meanwhile, back in U-boat headquarters in Paris, Donitz was startled by Hartenstein’s actions. Although he ordered for no such rescues to take place, this time he not only allowed it, but nevertheless supported it. Donitz would explain many years later, “to give them an order contrary to the laws of humanity would have destroyed it (the crews morale) utterly”.
Home » U-Boat Historical Battles » Laconia Incident
The Laconia Incident
The story of the Laconia Incident began on the morning of September 12 1942. U-156 was on patrol in the South Atlantic, off the bulge of West Africa, midway between Liberia and the Ascension Island. Commanded by KL Werner Hartenstein, she was one of the many Type IXCs stationed along the west coast of Africa. While heading southward on the surface, the cry of a lookout brought Hartenstein to the bridge of the U-boat. Their attention was fixated on the silhouette of a large British ship, sailing alone in the distant horizon, southwest of their position. That location was about 500 miles off the African coast and at an area frequently patrolled by allied planes based out of Freetown. Hartenstein altered course to run parallel with the ship, keeping the smoke in sight and staying far out of sight until he could close the gap when night has fallen.
He would soon learn that his target was the 20,000 ton British Cunard Star Liner, the Laconia. At the outbreak of war, the Laconia had been converted into a troopship, armed with deck guns, depth charges and asdic equipment. This made her a legitimate military target.
Survivors of the sunken Laconia cramped on the upper deck of U-156 (Werner Hartenstein). Civilian women and children including the wife of the governer of Malta was among the survivors rescued by U-boats.
As soon as sunset approached, Hartenstein closed his target and by 10pm, U-156 was in position. With the allied ship in his crosshairs, he fired two torpedoes from a range of about two miles. After a run of about three minutes, both torpedoes found their target and almost immediately the Laconia stopped dead in the water and began to list. Hartenstein surfaces and makes his way to the stricken ship to try to capture senior military officers. In the fading sunlight, crew members of the U-156 could see survivors struggling in the water, some in lifeboats, but many in the sea. The scene was in total chaos, with burning wreckage lighting up the night sky, there were floating corpses, overcrowded lifeboats, frantic swimmers and panic cries for help.
As he approached the beleaguered survivors, the crew of U-156 was astonished to hear the sounds of Italian voices. “Aiuto, aiuto”, the cries for help in Italian. Puzzled, he takes on a few survivors and soon discovers the true situation aboard the Laconia. As it turned out, she was carrying 2,732 passengers; 136 crew, 285 British soldiers, 80 civilians including women and children, 160 Polish guards and 1,800 Italian prisoners of war. It was not the troopship that he had imagined.
Realizing his error, Hartenstein immediately launches a rescue operation. Hundreds of survivors were picked up, including civilian women and children, with many crammed inside the submarine, on the upper deck and a further 200 survivors in tow aboard four lifeboats. He also called for assistance from nearby U-boats and broadcasted a radio message in plain English, providing his position and requesting aid from any nearby vessels, promising a suspension of hostilities while rescue operations were underway. U-156 remained on the surface for two and a half days providing aid to the beleaguered survivors.
Meanwhile, back in U-boat headquarters in Paris, Donitz was startled by Hartenstein’s actions. Although he ordered for no such rescues to take place, this time he not only allowed it, but nevertheless supported it. Donitz would explain many years later, “to give them an order contrary to the laws of humanity would have destroyed it (the crews morale) utterly”.
Erich Wurdeman of U-506 arrives two days later and joins in the rescue.
To speed up the rescue operation, he ordered three more U-boats to speed to Hartenstein’s aid. Flying the Red Cross flag, U-506 (Erich Wurdeman) and U-507 (Harro Schacht) arrived two days later, just around noon of September 15. They were later joined by an Italian submarine Cappelini. These four submarines shepherded the survivors, with lifeboats in tow and hundreds standing on the decks of the U-boat, they made towards the African coastline for a rendezvous with Vichy French warships dispatched as part of the rescue.
The next morning, September 16, at 11.25am, this concentration of U-boats was spotted by an American B-24 Liberator bomber operating out of Ascension island. The survivors waved and the U-boats signaled for help. As Red Cross flags were draped over their decks, the pilot Lieutenant James D. Harden turned away and radioed back to base for instructions. The officer on duty that day Captain Robert C. Richardson III replied with the order to attack.
Half an hour later, Harden flew back and the survivors felt a sigh of relief on seeing the returning aircraft. They had expected a drop of supplies, of the much needed food and medicine. Instead, they were attacked with a concentration of bombs and depth charges. One bomb landed amidst a lifeboat and hundreds perished during that attack. U-156 was slightly damaged and forced to submerge, leaving hundreds of victims struggling in the water. All the submarines dived and escaped, although U-506 and U-507 returned to the area later, unwilling to desert the people they had saved. Fortunately, Vichy French warships from Dakar arrived the next day and picked up the remaining survivors, so the loss of life from the American action was contained. In total, there were about 1,621 deaths with 1,111 survivors, including those already taken aboard the overcrowded U-boats. This incident left a foul bitterness in the U-boat war that would cast a long shadow over Donitz and his seamen.
The action of Captain Richardson was considered by many as a war crime, although no formal charges were ever placed. As a result of this incident, Admiral Donitz issued an order forbidding U-boats from attempting any rescues and furthermore, from providing any assistance whatsoever to survivors of submarine attacks. He was quoted to say “no attempt of any kind must be made to rescue the crews of ships sunk”. This order became to be known as the “Laconia Order”. Up until now, it was common for U-boats to aid survivors of their attack by providing provisions and pointing out the direction closest to land. Despite the order, some U-boat commanders continued in their practice to aid survivors of their attacks.
After the war, Donitz stood trial for war crimes and the Laconia order was used as a basis of indictment against him. Most surprisingly, he received support from some of the most respected figures in the US Navy, Admital Chester Nimitz who came to his defense and said that the United States had operated under the same engagements of unrestricted warfare. Despite the evidence of allied practice, Donitz was convicted of war crimes by the Nuremberg Tribunal and sentenced to 11 and a half years in prison. The U-boat crews deeply resented this action and felt that they were being prosecuted for the threat they had posed to the allies rather than for war crimes
British television produced a two part miniseries/movie on the incident entitles "The Sinking of the Laconia" which is available on DVD through Amason and other vendors.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
