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Perhaps the separation would have occurred peacefully if the South had chosen different tactics.
* Pay fair market price for Federal land and assets
* Agree to fixed borders, i.e. end manifest Destiny in North America
* Agree to fight as one against foreign forces in the area (joint approach to the Monroe Doctrine)
* Agree to foreign trade cooperation
* Agree on terms regarding extradition and freedom of slaves
* sign a free trade agreement
* Allowed slaves to buy their freedom
* Agree to the end of slavery at some time in the future, during which time the North would help industrialize the South
* Agreed to place the common revolytionary heritage at the center of the bilateral relationship
Instead, they chose the most inflamed rhetoric, forcibly shelled and seized Ft. Sumter, and had been discussing foreign agreements with European governments.
It was too bad for all, North, South, slaves, and the principles of the US.
S.
Yes, they might have gotten away with it then. But that would never happen when they had this idea that they could get it through force of arms.
And you are absolutely correct about the inflammatory rhetoric. Southern politicians and southern newspapers were lusting for war after Lincoln's election. And no reason would dissuade them.
Hmmm. Interesting angle on it, Sanpointian. I mean that sincerely!
Here is my layman reply...
* Pay fair market price for Federal land and assets
Most land in (for sure Texas) wasn't owned by the federal government. But as it is, the "provincial" government of the CSA offered to pay for Ft. Sumter.
* Agree to fixed borders, i.e. end manifest Destiny in North America
That might have been difficult on both sides
* Agree to fight as one against foreign forces in the area (joint approach to the Monroe Doctrine)
* Agree to foreign trade cooperation
As it was, the Confederate government offered to negotiate a mutually agreeable defensive and economic alliance...and open up the Mississippi River for free trade and navigation.
* Agree on terms regarding extradition and freedom of slaves
* Allowed slaves to buy their freedom
Take those two at a time...
That would have happened eventually. "Plantation" type slavery had pretty well reached its natural limits in western Texas, anyway. It was destined to die a natural death....
The book "Time On The Cross" covers this one fairly well. It is not PC to say it, but actually, mortality rates of babies born to northern factory worker families was greater than slaves in the South. Also -- again it is a forbidden topic -- but as a general rule slaves in the South had a longer life-span and better quality of living (as these things were measured in the day) than northern factory workers. Sure, there were sadistic slave-owners (both black and white), but by and large, they were obligated by laws and simple notions of Christian/humanitarian ethics, to take care of the sick, injured, and old.
In contrast to the Northern factories where once somebody got hurt on the job, then tough s**t. Or get to old to work? Well, here is $5 and a handshake. Otherwise, tough s**t.
* Agree to the end of slavery at some time in the future, during which time the North would help industrialize the South
Slavery had already reached its natural geographic limits. And let's not forget the Northern slave trade.
* Agreed to place the common revolytionary heritage at the center of the bilateral relationship*
Good point. And as I am sure you know, it was the South which WAS at the center of the writing of the DOI and Constitution.
*Instead, they chose the most inflamed rhetoric, forcibly shelled and seized Ft. Sumter, and had been discussing foreign agreements with European governments.*
No, but then again I can see how you see it that way. It is all a matter of historical perspective. The Confederate States of America were a soveriegn nation...and Ft. Sumter (which we had offered to pay for) was in our waters. We had no choice but to fire. We offered every reasonable opportunity to withdraw..and with HONORS! Most of those guys facing each other didn't want to fight each other. They had served together in earlier wars. Or had attended West Point with each other.
If Lincoln has just let the South go in peace....
Ahh, Texas Reb reveals his true self. The Confederate States were a nation, slavery really wasn't that bad, and that mean old Mr. Lincoln was responsible for everything! Are you and Rhett related?
Welcome to the world of Revisionist Southern History. Sad, but these folks exist, and they actually believe this nonsense.
Slaves already could buy their freedom as well the freedom of their families. In the North there were so called "Virtually Free slaves" (Fredrick Douglas was one) who had all the freedom of moment and choice of a white person except they reported weekly to their owner to pay an agreed upon portion of their wages.
One well known Virtually free slave, Simon Grey, Built a Vacation home in Hot Springs. There is another account of a recently freed Slave who amassed around $20,000 (actual dollars ) to buy all of his family's freedom.
Still, with over three hundred years of Ships passing the West coast of Africa on their trade Journey's to the Americas, there would still be a significant population of Africans in this hemisphere
I appreciate the response, TexReb. My "suggestions" were really questions, as I would imagine that these would have been important part of any list of negotiations.
American mythology over Lincoln makes me hungry for how he was in backroom deals and what drove him heading into 1861. Were his hands tied? Who were the other players? Was my presumption wrong, i.e. was it CSA who tried everything with civility but had no choice?
What was the position within the South on Slaves?
Loads of questions.
And there is the early part of the War when one might think that cooler heads might have realised where this was going to go. At what point was there a point of no return?
I appreciate that you took the time to pique my interest!
Can you recommend a good book that discusses the legal and political discussions between the pre-CSA and CSA and the Union?
Having lived in ATL for over half a century I have no more to say on this topic.
LOL--That is the best medicine. Suffice it to say something was done and through a cooperative effort things improved and the same strategies still work in ATL.
Say slavery never existed in North America, do you think African-Americans would make up more than say 5% of the current population? Without Europeans bringing them over I don't believe Africa would of had the technological means to explore until years and years after the discovery of N. America. No racial nonsense, just a what if discussion.
With all due respect, what you just wrote is nonsense because Africans were already here BEFORE Europeans brought them over. Ever heard of the Olmec civilization?
Also, Africans had the technological means to explore BEFORE the Europeans, because it was the Moors who taught the Europeans everything they know. The Moors were African!
Look, there was slavery all over the world at that time..
Yes, exactly! This is how, say, the Inca civilization came to such great power. They would conquer neighboring Indian villages/tribes and used them to work the land; worse case scenario they would be used for human sacrifice.
Slavery should have NEVER existed in America or anywhere else, PERIOD!!!!! I honestly think that slavery was one of the worst things that has ever happened in the worlds history! The Holocaust was another one of the WORST things that happened in the worlds history.
HUMANS ARE HUMAN PERIOD!!!! No one should be treated any less than anyone else.
Yes, I agree, but Slavery goes back into the ancient world, we can go back as far as the Ancient Sumerians and you will still find slavery.
Regardless, even in 2009 slavery still exist; you have the sex slave trade, the factory work slave trade that goes on in China and India; all the way to Americans who are slaves to there jobs because the money system is rigged. In other words, because of the purposely reduced purchasing power Americans need two incomes (320 hours a month) just to make ends meet.
As far as the holocaust, why don't people EVER talk about the Armenian genocide! That was far worse and it happened over 3 periods in time.
Last edited by Morphous01; 10-25-2009 at 02:28 PM..
No, it wasn't. What Hitler did to the jews was merely a continuation of what Europeans had been doing to them for 1900 years. The only country where they were treated decently was Spain under the Moors.
I appreciate the response, TexReb. My "suggestions" were really questions, as I would imagine that these would have been important part of any list of negotiations.
American mythology over Lincoln makes me hungry for how he was in backroom deals and what drove him heading into 1861. Were his hands tied? Who were the other players? Was my presumption wrong, i.e. was it CSA who tried everything with civility but had no choice?
What was the position within the South on Slaves?
Loads of questions.
And there is the early part of the War when one might think that cooler heads might have realised where this was going to go. At what point was there a point of no return?
I appreciate that you took the time to pique my interest!
Can you recommend a good book that discusses the legal and political discussions between the pre-CSA and CSA and the Union?
Thanks for a nice reply SP!
I would recommend the book "Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government" by Jefferson Davis as THE definitive book on the War and the Southern side of it. Problem is, it is hard reading and not easy to get thru. Although I admire him, Davis was NOT a good writer...as these things go. He took himself very seriously and wrote in the same manner! LOL
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I honestly think that slavery was one of the worst things that has ever happened in the worlds history! The Holocaust was another one of the WORST things that happened in the worlds history.
