Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-02-2009, 11:28 AM
 
594 posts, read 1,778,374 times
Reputation: 754

Advertisements

Recently, I've been reading about the enigmatic German pocket battleship Tirpitz, arguably called the most feared warship of WWII. At over 50,000 tons fully loaded and the second largest European warship ever built, it was a formidable ship, mounted with eight fifteen-inch guns and very heavily armored. After the loss of the Bismarck, Hitler decided not to expose its sister ship to its designed purpose as a merchant marine raider, opting to keep it anchored in Norwegian fjords.The Norwegians called it "The Lonely Queen of the North."

Although it was never engaged in battle, it's mere presence was considered enough of a threat to North Atlantic shipping and Russia-bound convoys as to tie up large groups of British and American naval forces. Winston Churchill made it a top priority to disable or destroy the Tirpitz, and several attempts were made by British air and naval forces to do so. It was finally sunk in late 1944 by British bombers using 6-ton "Tall-Boy" bombs.

One of the more interesting stories of the Tirpitz was its alleged role in the ill-fated Convoy PQ-17 that was bound for Russian ports of Murmansk and arkhangels. As the convoy approached the North Cape of Norway, it was reported that the Tirpitz, accompanied by auxiliary ships, was sailing toward the convoy. Apparently the Tirpitz did make a feint in the direction of the convoy, but didn't follow through and returned to port. The PQ-17 Convoy being escorted by British naval vessels was put on alert and the merchant vessels were told to scatter. As the vessels were sailing in all directions they became easy targets for the German submarines lurking in the area. Of the 34 or 35 cargo vessels that left Iceland, only 10 or 11 made it through to Russia. It was one of the worst marine disasters in the history of the WWII supply convoys and many lives were lost.

When I first started reading about the Tirpitz, I had no idea that it would lead to the story of the PQ-17 Convoy, but the account of the merchant marine in WWII gave me a new appreciation for the risks that these men and, yes, women took to supply Russia with badly needed material. Many of the crew on the Russian cargo ships were indeed women. One story which I can't verify for accuracy is that, when some Russian male crew members attempted to leave their badly damaged ship in a lifeboat, women crew members manned machine guns and forced them to return to the ship. There are accounts of indescribable suffering of those who found themselves adrift for days on the North Atlantic and Arctic seas, with resulting frostbite and loss of limbs, if they were even lucky enough to make it. A couple links follow for further reading:

Merchant Navy in WW2 - PQ17 (http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/convoypq17.html - broken link)


American Merchant Marine in World War 2
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-02-2009, 02:50 PM
 
6,565 posts, read 14,293,678 times
Reputation: 3229
Wasn't the Tirpitz basically the sister ship of the Bismarck?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-02-2009, 03:24 PM
 
900 posts, read 672,846 times
Reputation: 299
The Tirpitz was not a 'pocket battleship'. The german pocket battleships were actually more like beefed up cruisers, with 6 11" guns and designed to attack merchant shipping. The Germans had three - the Graf Spee, the Admiral Scheer, and the Lutzow (originally named the Deutschland). Pocket battleships were in effect small battleships.

There was nothing small about the Tirpitz. She was the Bismarck's sister ship and was definitely feared by the British for the effect she might have on the Murmansk convoys. The story of Convoy PQ 17 is a fascinating one and turned out to be, as you point out, an absolute disaster.

If you are interested in a great novel about the Murmansk convoy runs, I'd recommend H.M.S. Ulysses by Alistair MacLean. It gives a great account of the perils faced from U-Boats, German air attacks, and the constant threat from the Tirpitz. Plus it's just a great read and gives you some idea of what hell escort duty on the edge of the arctic circle in winter time was like.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-03-2009, 07:15 AM
 
6,565 posts, read 14,293,678 times
Reputation: 3229
Nm....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-03-2009, 07:22 AM
 
594 posts, read 1,778,374 times
Reputation: 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angus Podgorny View Post
The Tirpitz was not a 'pocket battleship'. The german pocket battleships were actually more like beefed up cruisers, with 6 11" guns and designed to attack merchant shipping. The Germans had three - the Graf Spee, the Admiral Scheer, and the Lutzow (originally named the Deutschland). Pocket battleships were in effect small battleships.

There was nothing small about the Tirpitz. She was the Bismarck's sister ship and was definitely feared by the British for the effect she might have on the Murmansk convoys. The story of Convoy PQ 17 is a fascinating one and turned out to be, as you point out, an absolute disaster.

If you are interested in a great novel about the Murmansk convoy runs, I'd recommend H.M.S. Ulysses by Alistair MacLean. It gives a great account of the perils faced from U-Boats, German air attacks, and the constant threat from the Tirpitz. Plus it's just a great read and gives you some idea of what hell escort duty on the edge of the arctic circle in winter time was like.
Angus,
Thanks for the correction on the "pocket" battleship. Obviously I wasn't thinking that through! Also, thanks for the tip on MacLean's book. It sounds very interesting.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-03-2009, 09:46 AM
 
900 posts, read 672,846 times
Reputation: 299
You're welcome. And you'll enjoy the novel. It's in my top three of WWII novels.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2009, 01:38 AM
 
Location: Turn right at the stop sign
4,688 posts, read 4,038,319 times
Reputation: 4880
I don’t know about the most feared ship in World War II. I think that particular distinction would more likely go to either the Yamato or Musashi. But from the British standpoint, yes, Tirpitz was probably the one ship they were most afraid of following the destruction of the Bismarck. The degree of damage she was capable of doing alone or in concert with other ships, was considerable. It is no wonder that the British Admiralty made the operational decision that British surface ships were not to engage Tirpitz unless a force equal to the one that destroyed the Bismarck, was present.

The original decision to send Tirpitz to Norway in January 1942, wasn’t so much about intercepting and sinking convoys, but instead the first step in the establishment of a “fleet in being”. After the loss of Bismarck, Grand Admiral Erich Raeder felt that sending Tirpitz safely into the Atlantic to act as a surface raider, was simply not possible. Having Tirpitz in what was considered much safer waters with the added benefit of tying up significant British naval assets in the process, seemed like the best solution. At around the same time Tirpitz was transferred to Norway, Hitler became convinced that the British were planning an attack there or were going to land troops in Murmansk. This possible threat to the German northern flank while German forces were so heavily engaged in Russia, was deemed unacceptable. Hitler ordered that the two battle cruisers, Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, and the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen, be immediately brought back to Germany from their current base in Brest, France, and then go on to join Tirpitz in Norway. “Operation Cerberus”, the name given to the plan to sail these vessels straight up the English Channel, on the surface seemed suicidal, especially given the British forces that were arrayed to stop just such a move. But a combination of bad weather, faulty British radar, and complete surprise that the ships would attempt to leave in daylight, led to the three ships making the 300 mile journey back to Germany with little incident; much to the embarrassment of the Royal Navy. However, after all was said and done, of the three ships, only Scharnhorst would go on to operate in the Arctic Ocean with Tirpitz.

As to Norwegian waters being safer for Tirpitz, Admiral Raeder was mistaken on that point. Tirpitz had been anchored in Faettenfjord only 14 days before the first British attempt to sink her was made. But from a “fleet in being” standpoint, Raeder was dead on. Churchill was so concerned about Tirpitz and other heavy units stationed in Norway, he decided that no vessels from the British Home Fleet would be sent to other theaters of operation until all German ships of significance were permanently put out of action. This had a serious negative impact on British naval operations in the Pacific and Mediterranean. Worries over Tirpitz also led to the launch of “Operation Chariot”, the raid on the French port of Saint Nazaire. The so called “Normandie” dry dock was the only facility in German occupied Europe capable of accommodating a battleship the size of Tirpitz. When it was successfully destroyed on March 28, 1942, the British ensured that Tirpitz would have no place she could be fully repaired should they manage to seriously damage her.

“Operation Rosselsprung/Knight’s Move”, which was designed to destroy the “PQ-17” convoy, was the largest naval force ever assembled by the Germans during the entire war. It consisted of two battle groups, one led by Tirpitz, the other by the pocket battleship Lutzow, for a total of 21 ships to go after ‘PQ-17”. Unfortunately for the Germans, a series of mishaps led to the withdrawal of several vessels from the battle group before it even left Norwegian waters. So on July 5, 1942, it was a rather reduced force made up of Tirpitz, Admiral Scheer, Admiral Hipper, and 6 destroyers that sortied out to track down “PQ-17”. Conflicting reports from Luftwaffe spotters and intercepted messages from a Russian submarine and a British reconnaissance plane, led the battle group commander, Admiral Otto Schniewind, to believe that his group had been discovered. Thinking that any attempts to close range with “PQ-17” would put his force at risk of attack from planes from the British aircraft carrier, Victorious, Admiral Schniewind ordered the return of his vessels to their base in Bogen. Similarly, bad intelligence reports about the actual size and location of the Tirpitz battle group, led the British to make the fatal error of withdrawing their escort ships and scattering “PQ-17”. In actuality, Tirpitz and the vessels that accompanied her never got within 300 miles of the convoy.

Interestingly, a Kreigsmarine operation that didn’t involve Tirpitz was almost responsible for her elimination before the British could do the job themselves. “Operation Regenbogen”, the code name for the planned attack on Arctic convoy “JW-15B” at the end of December 1942, began with a great deal of promise, but ended with German ships being unable to sink a single vessel. Hitler was so enraged over this failure that he declared the Kreigsmarine to be worthless, and the ships stationed in Norway as nothing more than “dead iron”. He ordered Admiral Raeder to immediately decommission all heavy surface ships and have them stripped of anything useful that could be utilized elsewhere in the war effort. Unable to reason with Hitler and unwilling to implement his order, Admiral Raeder resigned, paving the way for Admiral Karl Donitz to take his place. Though he was an obvious advocate for submarine warfare, Donitz was not blind to the value of a “fleet in being”. He was able to convince Hitler of the need to retain heavy surface ships for use in relieving pressure on German forces in Russia. Thus, Tirpitz and the other vessels stayed in Norway.

As the war dragged on though, the ships that made up the Norway based “fleet in being” were either withdrawn to Germany for repair and use in the Baltic, or, as in the case of Scharnhorst, destroyed by the British in battle. By 1944, Tirpitz had truly become the “Lonely Queen of the North”, her days reduced to little more than floating in Kafjord fending off British air attacks. In mid-September 1944, the British launched “Operation Paravane”, the first use of “Tallboy” bombs against Tirpitz. She was heavily damaged and it was determined that it was no longer possible to make Tirpitz seaworthy again. The decision was made to make Tirpitz a floating battery, and to that end, she was moved to what would be her last home; Hakoya Island near Tromso. By moving Tirpitz, the Germans had inadvertently hastened her destruction. Rather than rely on carrier based planes to go after Tirpitz as had been done before, British heavy bombers could now launch directly from England, attack, and still have enough fuel to make it home. This was the case on November 12, 1944, when “Operation Catechism” saw thirty-two Lancaster bombers carrying “Tallboy” bombs, takeoff from England and go after Tirpitz. Finally, after surviving eleven previous aerial bombings and one midget submarine attack, Tirpitz was destroyed.

It is true that Tirpitz never fulfilled the role of surface raider that she was built for, but she did something even more valuable for the Germans. For three years, her mere existence in the fjords of Norway kept precious British naval units tied down in home waters, and away from places they were sorely needed. Sure, her sister Bismarck received all the glory and notoriety for sinking the Hood. But from a practical standpoint, it seems as if Tirpitz actually accomplished far more then Bismarck ever did.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2009, 07:01 AM
 
594 posts, read 1,778,374 times
Reputation: 754
TonyT,
As always, a great commentary! It strikes me that, for a country that didn't put their main emphasis on a surface fleet, the Germans produced some very formidable warships. I've read that even Churchill gave a grudging nod to the construction of the Bismarck and it's ability to withstand punishment. I'm sure that led to justifiable fears over the equally dangerous Tirpitz.

BTW, I didn't know until recently that Germany had started construction on an aircraft carrier, the Graf Zeppelin, at Danzig (Gdansk). It was a small ship as carriers go, accommodating only 40 planes. I believe the Germans attempted to scuttle it before the arrival of the Russian forces. If my memory is correct, I believe the Russians were later able to move the unfinished carrier to one of their ports.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-04-2009, 10:24 AM
 
900 posts, read 672,846 times
Reputation: 299
Agreed. Great history regarding Tirpitz.

The German surface navy was long on quality but very short on quantity. Raeder supposedly had long range plans that would have had a substantial surface force in place by 1944, but of course the war started in 1939.

As it turned out, the most successful German surface ships in terms of tonnage sunk turned out to be the Q ships, or armed surface raiders, although they only succeeded during the early part of the war. There are a couple of very good books out on these ships, the most successful of which were the Atlantis and the Pinguin. These were converted merchant ships, usually disguised as normal merchantmen, but carrying at least one heavy gun and a number of smaller guns.

Of course they were no match for warships, and the British eventually caught and sunk most of them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-05-2009, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,138 posts, read 22,810,657 times
Reputation: 14116
Pocket battleship? The Tirpitz was a big-ass ship, and nearly identical to the Bismark. It spend most of the war hidden in a Norweigan fjord because the Germans were too scared to send it out, since it would instantly be attacked and sunk.

So no, The Tirpitz was no good as a terror inducing machine for the allies. Now U-boats on the other hand...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:13 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top