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The reason Russian casulties were so high is because Stalin kept ordering his troops to attack fixed front positions and the Germans kept performing double pincer movements and encircled and destroyed whole Soviet armies. The Germans were clearly the better fighting force. Stalin won on the piles of millions of dead troops he sacraficed.
This is somewhat simplistic. As I argued somewhere in this thread, most of the Soviet casualties were civilian, not military. The reasons are two-fold: 1. It was a "total war" in which battles took place not just in open fields but also in cities, towns and villages across a huge area of the Sovient Union, where tens of millions of people lived. 2. The Nazis treated the civilian population terribly. Jews, Communists, Soviet POWs, and many others, such as those who were suspected in collaborating with the partisans, were either shot or sent to death and concentration camps. The German army often requisitioned crops and livestock from Soviet farmers for their own needs. In the countryside, people were left with destroyed buildings and with little to no food to fend for themselves during harsh winters. Over 5 million Poles died for many of the same reasons.
As far as military casualties, there is no question that the Wehrmacht was more effective than the Red Army which led to higher casualties than necessary on the part of the latter. Still, the Red Army began the war in a highly disadvantageous position. The Germany army was fully mobilized and deployed while the Red Army was not. Germany invaded the USSR without any warning, no political demands or ultimatum of any kind. Out of clear blue sky. The Red Army was caught unprepared which lead to a disaster in 1941, with German getting to the gates of Moscow.
Stalin's brutality may have been a factor but the reality was simply that there were very few options. The Soviet Union did not have an ocean separating itself from Germany and didn't have the luxury of building up, training and equipping its troops on its own timetable, carefully planning its operations, deciding when and where to fight.
The number of dead Soviet troops was actually higher in each successive year of the war. In the seven months of 1941, 4.3 million men were killed. As bad as 1941 was,the next three years were hardly better. In 1942, the death toll was seven million. In 1943,the year of the of the great Soviet victories of Stalingrad and Kursk, it was nearly 7.5 million men. In 1944, it was, for the first time, significantly down, only 6.5 million deaths, but in the final months of the war, the Red Army lost nearly three million men. The Germans continued to win the casualty exchange right up until the end of the war. The claim routinely made by people that as the war continued, and particularly toward the end, thw Red Army "decimated" the Wehrmacht is simply wishful thinking.
The number of dead Soviet troops was actually higher in each successive year of the war. In the seven months of 1941, 4.3 million men were killed. As bad as 1941 was,the next three years were hardly better. In 1942, the death toll was seven million. In 1943,the year of the of the great Soviet victories of Stalingrad and Kursk, it was nearly 7.5 million men. In 1944, it was, for the first time, significantly down, only 6.5 million deaths, but in the final months of the war, the Red Army lost nearly three million men. The Germans continued to win the casualty exchange right up until the end of the war. The claim routinely made by people that as the war continued, and particularly toward the end, thw Red Army "decimated" the Wehrmacht is simply wishful thinking.
The Soviets were caught of guard because of Stalin. His spies kept telling him the Germans were gathering millions of troops at the Russian border and he refused to believe it. His spies even gave him the exact date of Barbarossa.(June 22). Also Stalin was planning to attack Germany and Hitler was aware of this which is why he invaded Russia first. Only before Stalingrad when Stalin decided to let his generals plan the offensives did the Soviets start winning battles. As for the Germans being more mobile is a misconception. They were still using horses in 1941 and the Red Army was just as mobile with the millions of tons of jeeps, supply trucks and tanks that America and Britian supplied the Red Army with. Hitler lost the Eastern Front by pulling out his best troops and sending them to Sicily, Italy and the Balkans. But the Germans came VERY close to winning the war with Russia in those first couple years, thanks to his great generals Von Manstain and Heinz Guderian.
At least one factor is that many of the battles on the eastern front took place in some of the Soviet Unions most populated territories.
Another factor though is that the Soviet Union just wasn't as advanced as Germany. Technology and Medical care were half a century behind the western European countries. Stalin was throwing peasants at an army that was highly trained, highly equipped, and very much out for blood.
1. Is there a link? If not, what is the publication's name, etc?
2. Is Mosier an authority on the casualties on the Eastern Front or does he get his numbers from somewhere else?
3. I highly suspect you are misinterpreting the data. You are trying to attribute all 28 million dead as combat related. Most estimates I have seen state military dead to somewhere between 8 to 12 million, with the balance (about 12-17 million) being civilian casualties.
1. Is there a link? If not, what is the publication's name, etc?
2. Is Mosier an authority on the casualties on the Eastern Front or does he get his numbers from somewhere else?
3. I highly suspect you are misinterpreting the data. You are trying to attribute all 28 million dead as combat related. Most estimates I have seen state military dead to somewhere between 8 to 12 million, with the balance (about 12-17 million) being civilian casualties.
You must of misunderstood me. I was including civilian deaths in those numbers. I also agree with your balance of 12 to 17 million as would most experts. We both know there is a number of reasons for the high death rate in the Red Army. Most of the troops had no basic training and were thrown into battle against battle hardend Wehrmacht veterans who wete well trained and well equipped. Hitler also had much more capable generals compared to Stalin who killed or imprisoned most of his best generals. One of the things that Hitlers enemies missed was the ability of the Wehrmacht to reconstitute itself after chaos of defeat or even strategic fighting withdrawal which Germany performed very effectivley. In fact one Soviet general called the Wehrmacht a Phoenix because they kept rising from their own ashes to inflict horrendous casulties. 2. The publication is called "Deathride" Hitler vs. Stalin Eastern Front. Its a great real and I recommend it to you.
You must of misunderstood me. I was including civilian deaths in those numbers. I also agree with your balance of 12 to 17 million as would most experts. We both know there is a number of reasons for the high death rate in the Red Army. Most of the troops had no basic training and were thrown into battle against battle hardend Wehrmacht veterans who wete well trained and well equipped. Hitler also had much more capable generals compared to Stalin who killed or imprisoned most of his best generals. One of the things that Hitlers enemies missed was the ability of the Wehrmacht to reconstitute itself after chaos of defeat or even strategic fighting withdrawal which Germany performed very effectivley. In fact one Soviet general called the Wehrmacht a Phoenix because they kept rising from their own ashes to inflict horrendous casulties. 2. The publication is called "Deathride" Hitler vs. Stalin Eastern Front. Its a great real and I recommend it to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torrachris
The number of dead Soviet troops was actually higher in each successive year of the war. In the seven months of 1941, 4.3 million men were killed. As bad as 1941 was,the next three years were hardly better. In 1942, the death toll was seven million. In 1943,the year of the of the great Soviet victories of Stalingrad and Kursk, it was nearly 7.5 million men. In 1944, it was, for the first time, significantly down, only 6.5 million deaths, but in the final months of the war, the Red Army lost nearly three million men. The Germans continued to win the casualty exchange right up until the end of the war. The claim routinely made by people that as the war continued, and particularly toward the end, thw Red Army "decimated" the Wehrmacht is simply wishful thinking.
You made no mention of civilians at all and mentioned "troops" and "Red Army" multiple times.
You made no mention of civilians at all and mentioned "troops" and "Red Army" multiple times.
I didn't mean for you to misinterpret what I was saying. Actually the Russian goverment recently released new documents from the archives claiming that Red Army losses were much higher then experts originally thought. 17 to 21 million combat deaths on the Eastern Front. Of course the truth will never be known because Stalin did not release accurate casualty reports during WW2.
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