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Old 07-29-2011, 09:36 PM
 
Location: Midwest
1,185 posts, read 1,574,469 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post

Lend Lease was immensely critical for the British, less so for the Soviets, but still important. However, to state that if we hadn't continuously resupplied them they would have been done for is false. Britain was not going to fall as the Germans had no way to invade. War weariness may have pushed them to peace eventually.
It's funny to think that a good portion of the war was influenced by Hitler's decision not to destroy the BEF at Dunkirk. With the destruction of the BEF, Lend Lease would of been of little value outside of keeping the civilian population going. The British would have began suing for peace or would have tried to hold out until eventually be invaded by Germany. If the Luftwaffe wouldn't have screwed the pooch with the Battle of Britain, an invasion would have been possible and the Brits would not have had the manpower to stop it.

If ole Adolf would have destroyed the BEF and not declared war on the US, the outcome of the war would have been very different.

Sorry for the quick observation, it was completely off topic.
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Old 07-30-2011, 02:40 PM
 
604 posts, read 611,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberator View Post
So what is the point of starting such a war?
Rather than saying how 'good' Germany was why not reflect how utterly stupid it's military was to even attempt it?
Please don't fall back on the old 'blame Hitler' excuse.
Germany started the fight and can not play the victim card.






Much disputed but lets say it is true.
Can it be claimed that the retention of these troops would have led to a victory in the East?
I think not and so it is just another excuse.

Sorta like the war in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya. Sure the United States is the greatest power in the world, but why are we bogged down in these places?
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Old 07-30-2011, 02:41 PM
 
18 posts, read 13,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torrachris View Post
. The victory over Germany was achieved through the economic power of the U.S. The U.S. shipped 11.3 billion worth of supplies to Russia. The argument that Russia could of won the war without allied aid is dubious at best.
Interesting logic, soldiers are a distraction and factory workers are the real victors.
As the bulk of US equipment in WW1 was supplied by (mainly) France and the UK why aren't you thanking them for "saving your ass"?
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Old 07-30-2011, 02:45 PM
 
604 posts, read 611,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberator View Post

Much disputed but lets say it is true.
Can it be claimed that the retention of these troops would have led to a victory in the East?
I think not and so it is just another excuse.

If the west did not pressure the Germans at Normady and at the landings in Italy and North Africa Russia would have been in deep Doo Doo. Even as early as 1942 Stalin was pressuring the Allies to attempt some type of invasion in the west.

If Germany did not have to defends its western borders and southern underbelly I would argue that it would have been a stale mate in the east between Germany and Russia. It was absolute critical for Hitler to hold North Africa and knock Britain out of the war if he wanted victory over the Soviet Union.

And contrary to popular belief the battle of Kursk was not such a huge victory as originally claimed by the Russians. Hitler had to stop Operation Citadel to move troops to prepare for the allied invasion of Italy.
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Old 07-30-2011, 02:49 PM
 
604 posts, read 611,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torrachris View Post
Less for the Soviets huh? I don't know why you try to downplay Lend-Lease aid to Russia. It would have been impossible for the Red Army to move the masses of troops and supplies on the primitive roads to the front lines without American Studebaker trucks, which also served as launching pads for Soviet rocket artillery. Lend-Lease provided vital help for the Soviet Union when the country was in desperate help and made significant contribution to final victory. The victory over Germany was achieved through the economic power of the U.S. The U.S. shipped 11.3 billion worth of supplies to Russia. The argument that Russia could of won the war without allied aid is dubious at best. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you think operation mars was a Soviet victory too. Winston Churchill said that any country that is a enemy to Germany is a friend of ours, regardless of their politics.
I happen to agree with you. Without lend lease I think the Russians would have been defeated by Germany or at least forced to some type of compromise. The economic might of the United States was critical in defeating Germany in WWII.

Without the trains, trucks, clothing, food, and weapons to support the Russian forces, I am not sure Russia could win on its own. In no way is this discounting the sacrifice the bravery and tenacity of the average Russian solider.
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Old 07-30-2011, 05:17 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skihikeclimb View Post
Hitler had to stop Operation Citadel to move troops to prepare for the allied invasion of Italy.
No.
Hitler 'stopped' Citadel because the northern attack was totaly blunted and a Soviet ofensive had started.
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Old 07-30-2011, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Midwest
1,185 posts, read 1,574,469 times
Reputation: 670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberator View Post
Interesting logic, soldiers are a distraction and factory workers are the real victors.
As the bulk of US equipment in WW1 was supplied by (mainly) France and the UK why aren't you thanking them for "saving your ass"?
Not to get into a pissing contest, but "our asses" didn't need saved. We could of packed up and pulled out of Europe letting them duke it out on their own.

Typical of Europeans, American assistance in both wars is extremely downplayed.
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Old 07-30-2011, 07:31 PM
 
18 posts, read 13,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadro77 View Post
Not to get into a pissing contest, but "our asses" didn't need saved. We could of packed up and pulled out of Europe letting them duke it out on their own.

Typical of Europeans, American assistance in both wars is extremely downplayed.
I thought that would out you.
The truth is painful.
I would venture that 'typical Europeans' are wondering how deep seated is the inferiority complex that compels some to keep telling themselves how important they are in the scheme of things.

Anyway can I confirm you accept that all the successes on the AEF in WW1 was a direct result of French and UK supplies?
Like your claim every other armies success in WW2 was due to LL equipment.




.

Last edited by Liberator; 07-30-2011 at 07:41 PM..
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Old 07-30-2011, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Midwest
1,185 posts, read 1,574,469 times
Reputation: 670
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liberator View Post
I thought that would out you.
The truth is painful.
I would venture that 'typical Europeans' are wondering how deep seated is the inferiority complex that compels some to keep telling themselves how important they are in the scheme of things.

Anyway can I confirm you accept that all the successes on the AEF in WW1 was a direct result of French and UK supplies?
Like your claim every other armies success in WW2 was due to LL equipment.




.
Maybe UK supplies, French supplies were more if a hindrance, excluding food .

Inferiority complex? You're right, America didn't help much at all in WWII. Our European allies had total control of the situation and didn't need our assistance in any way, WWI as well. .

Feel better?

I never claimed every other Armies success was based on LL equipment. To say it wasn't vital to the British is just asinine, though. Maybe the Russians would have been fine once they got their industry ramped up, maybe not. Guess we'll never know.
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Old 07-30-2011, 09:45 PM
 
18 posts, read 13,518 times
Reputation: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadro77 View Post

Inferiority complex? You're right, America didn't help much at all in WWII. Our European allies had total control of the situation and didn't need our assistance in any way, WWI as well. .

Feel better?
I never felt 'bad'
That aside my observation is your reply marked as sarcasm is better described as a Freudian slip.
Note that I never said anything about any aid being unimportant rather that it was not 'the' war winner(which IS how it was described).

It appears any deviation from the 'we saved your ass' line is treated as a mortal insult.

I think instead it should be taken into account that being told your very existence is the product of anothers munificence is also an insult.

I can only compare it to a situation where a house catches fire and firemen are killed rescuing children. The surviving firemen are told 'great work guys but the real credit belongs to the men who made the hoses and the fire engine'!
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